SG Talk

By
Tanmay Kadam
December 6, 2022


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A senior Australian journalist, Brian Toohey, who has been writing extensively for Australia’s national security policy since 1973, has criticized the ‘Defense Strategy Review’ of the Australian government that has recommended buying the fourth squadron of F-35 fighter jets.

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Toohey points out the long history of costly problems of the F-35s already acquired while arguing that Australia “should be asking for a refund” and that “the biggest mistake was to buy the plane in the first place.”

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expects to spend a whopping AUD14.6 billion (US$10.87 billion) to sustain its Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II fleet till 2053.

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in February 2022, budget estimates documents filed by the Australian Department of Defense (DoD) revealed that RAAF’s F-35 Lightning II aircraft would spend less time in the air over the next four years than previously expected, igniting a national debate on the aircraft’s capability and viability.

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Australian media reports suggested the cause behind the reduction in expected flight hours was supposed to be maintenance issues related to operating the Joint Strike Fighters (JSFs).

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according to defense experts and Australian media reports, the Lockheed Martin F-35 fighters supplied to the RAAF have turned out to be a total disaster.

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the effective combat radius of the F-35A is only about 1,000 kilometers, and with a tanker aircraft, it could be extended to around 1,500 kilometers.

The F-35A cannot reach the South China Sea without aerial refueling. Even then, in the middle of a conflict, the availability of aerial tankers is doubtful over contested airspace.

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Australian defense journalist, Anthony Galloway, has suggested that the actual combat range of the F-35 might only be around 500 kilometers, considering the aircraft will have to accelerate during combat which uses more fuel.

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experts suggest the fighter cannot get to a target, or away, in a hurry if required because it can only fly at its top speed of 1,960 kilometers per hour (1.6 Mach) for 50 seconds after which it has to slow down noticeably.

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Another major problem of Australia’s latest F-35 aircraft is that they use the Block 3F software, a digital operating system designed by Lockheed Martin. It has also been proving very expensive to keep updated.

Worse, the current F-35 version is not even fit to go up against China, according to senior US Air Force officials.

Last year, Lt. Gen. S. Clinton Hinote, the USAF’s deputy chief of staff, expressed grave concerns about the Block 3F software, saying, “the block that is coming off the line right now is not a block that I feel good about going up against China and Russia.”

Hinote noted that the USAF did not even use the current version of the F-35 during the war games held in 2018 and 2019, focusing on the scenario of a Chinese air attack in Taiwan.

“We wouldn’t even play the current version of the F-35. It wouldn’t be worth it. … Every fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios,” said Hinote.

The only solution to these problems is a significant upgrade to the Block 4 operating system software, which is being advocated by Lockheed Martin and is reportedly running years late, with delivery expected before 2027. Also, it is going to be very expensive.

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This may require a significant upgrade to the existing Pratt & Whitney F135 Engine, or possibly even a new engine, as the Block 4 upgrades will need more power from the propulsion system and will also make the fighter run hotter, requiring greater cooling capabilities.


https://eurasiantimes.com/buying-f-35-fi...a-us-jets/

very quiet not much publicity.

(07-12-2022, 09:07 AM)Blin Wrote: [ -> ]very quiet not much publicity.

For Singapore we had also placed orders for the F-35 fighter jets. Not every country who wants to buy these aircrafts can do so.........

a burning shit hole..

(07-12-2022, 09:09 AM)debono Wrote: [ -> ]For Singapore we had also placed orders for the F-35 fighter jets. Not every country who wants to buy these aircrafts can do so.........

Not every country can be carrot head mah! 

(07-12-2022, 09:23 AM)cityhantam Wrote: [ -> ]Not every country can be carrot head mah! 

Only countries friendly with USA is allowed to buy these state of the art war planes.........

(07-12-2022, 09:09 AM)debono Wrote: [ -> ]For Singapore we had also placed orders for the F-35 fighter jets. Not every country who wants to buy these aircrafts can do so.........

Order 4 for evaluation purposes. Coming in year 2026
https://www.f35.com/f35/global-enterpris...apore.html

Still not confirmed to buy in bulk

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapor...122022_cna

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/09/...5-variant/

Singapore received U.S. State Department approval in January 2020 to acquire an initial tranche of four F-35Bs with an option for eight more aircraft in a deal valued at $2.75 billion, with deliveries expected to start from 2026.

(07-12-2022, 09:09 AM)debono Wrote: [ -> ]For Singapore we had also placed orders for the F-35 fighter jets. Not every country who wants to buy these aircrafts can do so.........

SG has been very very careful when comes to F-35....Reason are technical, cost and political considerations.

That's why RSAF so far only ordered 4 F-35B for "complete evaluation" purpose. Not even a single squadron size replacement of F-16 fleet. Officially, SG will continue to operate their upgraded F16 for at least "another decade". This seems to indicate RSAF as some concern with the F-35 effectiveness and may even be outdated by the time it gets fully operational...

Even Germany also complain about it.

(07-12-2022, 10:10 AM)Alam Wrote: [ -> ]Singapore received U.S. State Department approval in January 2020 to acquire an initial tranche of four F-35Bs with an option for eight more aircraft in a deal valued at $2.75 billion, with deliveries expected to start from 2026.

I sense that SG is dragging its feet over fully committing to F-35. The problem is the market options are limited for export verisons of 5th Gen stealth fighters and air warfare tech is evolving ever faster moving from manned to drone-autonomous platform.

For e.g. RSAF's current offensive mainstay is the F-15SG - and MINDEF is investing more on that proven platform as its works well with existing SAF network...And this is clear how we are spending on advance ammunitions and weapons to be used on the Eagle.

https://militaryleak.com/2022/07/27/us-s...air-force/

(07-12-2022, 09:03 AM)Levin Wrote: [ -> ]By
Tanmay Kadam
December 6, 2022


......

A senior Australian journalist, Brian Toohey, who has been writing extensively for Australia’s national security policy since 1973, has criticized the ‘Defense Strategy Review’ of the Australian government that has recommended buying the fourth squadron of F-35 fighter jets.

......

Toohey points out the long history of costly problems of the F-35s already acquired while arguing that Australia “should be asking for a refund” and that “the biggest mistake was to buy the plane in the first place.”

......

expects to spend a whopping AUD14.6 billion (US$10.87 billion) to sustain its Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II fleet till 2053.

......

in February 2022, budget estimates documents filed by the Australian Department of Defense (DoD) revealed that RAAF’s F-35 Lightning II aircraft would spend less time in the air over the next four years than previously expected, igniting a national debate on the aircraft’s capability and viability.

......

Australian media reports suggested the cause behind the reduction in expected flight hours was supposed to be maintenance issues related to operating the Joint Strike Fighters (JSFs).

......

according to defense experts and Australian media reports, the Lockheed Martin F-35 fighters supplied to the RAAF have turned out to be a total disaster.

......

the effective combat radius of the F-35A is only about 1,000 kilometers, and with a tanker aircraft, it could be extended to around 1,500 kilometers.

The F-35A cannot reach the South China Sea without aerial refueling. Even then, in the middle of a conflict, the availability of aerial tankers is doubtful over contested airspace.

......

Australian defense journalist, Anthony Galloway, has suggested that the actual combat range of the F-35 might only be around 500 kilometers, considering the aircraft will have to accelerate during combat which uses more fuel.

......

experts suggest the fighter cannot get to a target, or away, in a hurry if required because it can only fly at its top speed of 1,960 kilometers per hour (1.6 Mach) for 50 seconds after which it has to slow down noticeably.

......

Another major problem of Australia’s latest F-35 aircraft is that they use the Block 3F software, a digital operating system designed by Lockheed Martin. It has also been proving very expensive to keep updated.

Worse, the current F-35 version is not even fit to go up against China, according to senior US Air Force officials.

Last year, Lt. Gen. S. Clinton Hinote, the USAF’s deputy chief of staff, expressed grave concerns about the Block 3F software, saying, “the block that is coming off the line right now is not a block that I feel good about going up against China and Russia.”

Hinote noted that the USAF did not even use the current version of the F-35 during the war games held in 2018 and 2019, focusing on the scenario of a Chinese air attack in Taiwan.

“We wouldn’t even play the current version of the F-35. It wouldn’t be worth it. … Every fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios,” said Hinote.

The only solution to these problems is a significant upgrade to the Block 4 operating system software, which is being advocated by Lockheed Martin and is reportedly running years late, with delivery expected before 2027. Also, it is going to be very expensive.

......

This may require a significant upgrade to the existing Pratt & Whitney F135 Engine, or possibly even a new engine, as the Block 4 upgrades will need more power from the propulsion system and will also make the fighter run hotter, requiring greater cooling capabilities.


https://eurasiantimes.com/buying-f-35-fi...a-us-jets/

Buy JF20 from China is cheaper, better, faster. Parts available from TB also.

(07-12-2022, 10:29 AM)Manthink Wrote: [ -> ]I sense that SG is dragging its feet over fully committing to F-35. The problem is the market options are limited for export verisons of 5th Gen stealth fighters and air warfare tech is evolving ever faster moving from manned to drone-autonomous platform.

For e.g. RSAF's current offensive mainstay is the F-15SG - and MINDEF is investing more on that proven platform as its works well with existing SAF network...And this is clear how we are spending on advance ammunitions and weapons to be used on the Eagle.

https://militaryleak.com/2022/07/27/us-s...air-force/

This is confirmed. F15 is the best.

(07-12-2022, 09:07 AM)Blin Wrote: [ -> ]very quiet not much publicity.

You don't get to read this in pro-USA ST or CNA...

I came across this Article earlier and thought it was a joke when it says Aussies had concern with their brand new toys of +50 F-35A. Then that joke become a horrible reality on how they might have squandered their AU$ by believing their  American pal marketing....

Quote:Why Australia bought these jets
Australia committed to its new F-35 fighters off the plan in 2002. At the time, the F-35 was still a twinkle in the eyes of Lockheed Martin’s marketers. The US and several European countries had commissioned the aerospace company to design, build and manufacture the F-35, with the first step being a prototype.
Australia’s plan was to buy four squadrons – about 72 jets in total – at a cost of around A$16 billion.

https://theconversation.com/australia-sp...hem-177156

(07-12-2022, 10:55 AM)Manthink Wrote: [ -> ]I came across this Article earlier and thought it was a joke when it says Aussies had concern with their brand new toys of +50 F-35A. Then that joke become a horrible reality on how they might have squandered their AU$ by believing their  American pal marketing....

Wah, like FTX.

(07-12-2022, 12:00 PM)Levin Wrote: [ -> ]Wah, like FTX.

More like buying a house that you found to be too small for your need and too expensive to upkeep....In fact, the Author make such a comparison in the final paragraph:

It’s the price of buying off the plan, which anyone who’s bought a house or apartment would surely know.

(07-12-2022, 03:01 PM)Manthink Wrote: [ -> ]More like buying a house that you found to be too small for your need and too expensive to upkeep....In fact, the Author make such a comparison in the final paragraph:

It’s the price of buying off the plan, which anyone who’s bought a house or apartment would surely know.

I was referring to the 'due diligence' they carried out before making the decision to buy.

(07-12-2022, 03:12 PM)Levin Wrote: [ -> ]I was referring to the 'due diligence' they carried out before making the decision to buy.

Well, one can conclude Aussie's "due diligence" is not the same as SG's more cautious approach towards buying major untested military hardware.

Where is our harrier F35?

Singapore invest a lot in the R and D of F35?

Expensive toys not for the poor

Singapore bought the F35B VTOL, which will be useful if our runways get bombed. Unlike AU, we don't need to fly the planes to the S.China Sea, just far enough to neutralise our immediate neighbours if they ever think of invading.

(07-12-2022, 03:53 PM)starbugs Wrote: [ -> ]Singapore bought the F35B VTOL, which will be useful if our runways get bombed. Unlike AU, we don't need to fly the planes to the S.China Sea, just far enough to neutralise our immediate neighbours if they ever think of invading.

It was predicted SG selected the "B" version to operate onboard the future SG Navy Joint Multi Mission Ship (JMMS).
That may change as RSAF maybe focusing more on unmanned stealth drones to operate from more surface ship platform.
WIth increasing fusion of network-based solutions and inter-service experience of RSAF Fokker surveillance prop and larger UAVs...it is a matter of time manned 5 Gen fighters like the F-35 itself gets replaced.

(07-12-2022, 03:52 PM)Odessy Wrote: [ -> ]Expensive toys not for the poor

Modern military hardware aren't getting cheap..+ inflation. No thanks as most of RSAF hardware is based on USD..
That's why MINDEF had for many years very very careful in moving forward with the F-35 given its problematic development and zero track records in full combat operations other than the Israeli.  One key concern is F-35 is very very data-network depend on US-based contractors support.

Quote:The Ministry announced that it would “discuss details with relevant parties in the US before confirming its decision to acquire the F-35.” Defense Minister Ng Eng Hen said in a Tweet that this process could take nine to 12 months.


Singapore, like Israel, may want to be able to make modifications to customise the aircraft to meet the RSAF’s specific operational requirements, and will expect to be able to use its own sovereign national Mission Data. The US is unlikely to allow this.

https://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/2019...lects-f35/

(07-12-2022, 09:23 AM)cityhantam Wrote: [ -> ]Not every country can be carrot head mah! 

Moi thought ish already a common understanding that the F35 variant that most people gian ish the F35B because of it's versatility and less reliance on traditional air-field? F35A indeed ish not the best plane to use for long range target or in headon dogfight and intercepting enemy plane, but more for a quick hit and run type of mission.

Aussie maybe they view CCP as their primary potential foreign threat in next century so to them the best way ish to engage PLA in SCS before they got chance to reach aussie shore, thus to them maybe the shorter-range ish a big disadvantage since they no have bases near SCS area nor have air-craft carrier fleet to utilize the F35 versatility.

However F35 even the A variant ish still useful for red dot ish mainly because those serve NS should know that our arm forces believe in first strike strategy, so if detect hostile forces ready to attack, F35A ish still a good option to have to try stealth fly into enemy spaces fast, hit and deliver the surprise buttseck package and then fast fast run back. And F35B also a good option for us since we are just a little red dot with limited runaway for traditional CTOL planes. if all our air-field and runaway up lorry at least still got some planes to take off in time of need, even having emergency off-shore launch\land point (be it a tiny island or even a non-carrier ship) could be an option with F35B variant.

So F35 may not be a waste for our cases, our woes ish since we are becoming more and more friendly with CCP we may not get the full support from US in the future even if we do buy from them, as the variant sold to us may not be the full package and may customized to come with the lesser tech, system and weaponry or denied sharing of US intel network nor linking up to their satellite to utilize the full potential of this plane to prevent sensitive tech\info being leak to CCP. So this ish the main reason why we may end up getting a very sexpensive white elephant, but not because F35 ish useless or cannot meet our need.

(07-12-2022, 07:33 PM)Soulhacker Wrote: [ -> ]Moi thought ish already a common understanding that the F35 variant that most people gian ish the F35B because of it's versatility and less reliance on traditional air-field? F35A indeed ish not the best plane to use for long range target or in headon dogfight and intercepting enemy plane, but more for a quick hit and run type of mission.

Aussie maybe they view CCP as their primary potential foreign threat in next century so to them the best way ish to engage PLA in SCS before they got chance to reach aussie shore, thus to them maybe the shorter-range ish a big disadvantage since they no have bases near SCS area nor have air-craft carrier fleet to utilize the F35 versatility.

However F35 even the A variant ish still useful for red dot ish mainly because those serve NS should know that our arm forces believe in first strike strategy, so if detect hostile forces ready to attack, F35A ish still a good option to have to try stealth fly into enemy spaces fast, hit and deliver the surprise buttseck package and then fast fast run back. And F35B also a good option for us since we are just a little red dot with limited runaway for traditional CTOL planes. if all our air-field and runaway up lorry at least still got some planes to take off in time of need, even having emergency off-shore launch\land point (be it a tiny island or even a non-carrier ship) could be an option with F35B variant.

So F35 may not be a waste for our cases, our woes ish since we are becoming more and more friendly with CCP we may not get the full support from US in the future even if we do buy from them, as the variant sold to us may not be the full package and may customized to come with the lesser tech, system and weaponry or denied sharing of US intel network nor linking up to their satellite to utilize the full potential of this plane to prevent sensitive tech\info being leak to CCP. So this ish the main reason why we may end up getting a very sexpensive white elephant, but not because F35 ish useless or cannot meet our need.

Good inputs..........

(07-12-2022, 10:51 PM)debono Wrote: [ -> ]Good inputs..........

Totally agree on his point - like this "we are becoming more and more friendly with CCP"

I guess the one reason is SGrens are a lot more smarter than the Aussies when comes to believing in American marketing...