(22-06-2025, 02:41 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  Go listen to that short video again.

(22-06-2025, 03:03 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Old man said Jesus died on the cross...
The moslem gave all sorts of answers from the views of the commentators to judeo Christians sources to his own explanation 

(22-06-2025, 03:08 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  So, the Quran didn't say what you said the Quran says. So please stop saying lies about the Quran.

(22-06-2025, 03:22 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  The Quran is saying that Allah replaced Jesus with another innocent man..

(22-06-2025, 03:22 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Similar to the Quran, Hadith can also be interpreted differently, leading to further variations in understanding Islamic practices and beliefs...

(22-06-2025, 03:22 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Similar to the Quran, Hadith can also be interpreted differently, leading to further variations in understanding Islamic practices and beliefs...

(22-06-2025, 03:29 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  The Quran didn't say that. Stop lying. Have some self-respect.

(22-06-2025, 04:03 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  So don't be arrogant my friend. Don't speak as though you know.

(22-06-2025, 04:01 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  Every single Muslim, anywhere in the world, practices the religion in the same manner. How we do the solah, for example, is the same everywhere, and that includes the number of solah in a day, the cycles (rakaah), what we recite in the solah, how we bow, how we prostrate, and how we sit. Look at the image below, even how the feet is positioned, are all identical.

(22-06-2025, 04:20 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  I am not arrogant, I happen to be well informed

AI

Yes, that's correct. Hadith, which are narratives about the Prophet Muhammad's sayings and actions, are subject to different interpretations, leading to variations in how Muslims understand and practice their faith. These varying interpretations are a result of factors like the authenticity of the hadith, the specific school of Islamic law (madhhab) followed, and individual scholars' understandings.

(22-06-2025, 04:18 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  The Quran said that but because there are so many interpretations...you also got confused by your own book

Quranic Verse:
Surah An-Nisa (4:157) states, "And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them." 

Interpretation:
This verse is interpreted by many Muslims to mean that Jesus was not crucified, and someone else was made to look like him so that the Jews would think they had killed him. 

Different Perspectives:
Some Muslim scholars believe the person who resembled Jesus was someone else entirely, while others suggest it could have been a disciple or even Judas Iscariot.

(22-06-2025, 04:34 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  I've given you a clear example how our practice is the same everywhere. Also, how we fast. Every single Muslim will fast in exactly the same fashion in the month of Ramadan.

No, you're not well-informed. Far from it. You don't even know that Paul was quoting the OT.

(22-06-2025, 04:36 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  So, it was a man who wrote that interpretation for you. Is that the only interpretation? How do most scholars interpret that verse?

(22-06-2025, 04:50 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  I couldn't care less...it was your men who came up with the different interpretations...

I don care which scholars interpret that verse..I want to know which verse did Muhammad say?
Obviously no one knew what Muhammad was saying and that gave birth to numerous interpretations...

(22-06-2025, 04:46 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  You don know your stuff lah...and this has nothing to do with Paul! Trying to score some insignificant points again?

Differences in practice:

Some variations exist between Sunni and Shia Muslims in how they perform certain actions, such as the position of the hands during prayer or the recitation of specific phrases.

(22-06-2025, 04:58 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  And you said you're well-informed. LOL

The Quran is pristine. Everybody or anybody can check the original verse because we have it. You can check it yourself. 

https://quran.com/4/157?translations=33

(22-06-2025, 05:00 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  If I go to a Shia mosque, I will place my hands like how they do, because both ways are acceptable.

You don't even know Paul was quoting the OT and yet you want to claim you're well-informed. LOL

(22-06-2025, 05:11 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Pls  for this verse alone..you have numerous interpretations ...you know why? Because the Quran is unclear..that is the main reason! Are the words of God there to cause confusion? 

AI Overview



+8

Surah 4:157 of the Quran is interpreted differently, but most interpretations agree that it denies the crucifixion of Jesus (Isa), stating that he was not killed or crucified by the Jews. Some interpretations suggest Jesus was made to appear crucified to his enemies, while others believe he was physically taken up to God..

Here's a breakdown of the interpretations:
1. Substitution Theory: This is the most common interpretation. It suggests that someone else was crucified in Jesus' place, while Jesus was protected by God. This view emphasizes that Jesus was not killed by the Jews and that God's power protected him.

Some versions say the person crucified looked like Jesus, while others claim the event itself was made to appear as a crucifixion.
This interpretation aligns with the Quran's emphasis on God's power and protection of his messengers.

2. "Made to Appear" Theory: This view suggests that it only appeared to the Jews that Jesus was crucified. The actual event of crucifixion did not happen, or it happened in a way that was not a genuine death.
This interpretation is supported by some scholars who focus on the wording of the verse, which suggests the crucifixion was an illusion or deception.

3. Raising of Jesus: Some interpretations emphasize that Jesus was not killed, but was instead raised up to God. This is supported by the Quranic verse 4:158, which mentions Allah raising Jesus to Himself.
This interpretation focuses on Jesus's physical ascension, which is a significant event in Islamic belief.

4. Different Interpretations: Some scholars believe that the verse refers to Jesus's death and resurrection on the Day of Judgement, rather than an earthly crucifixion.
This interpretation acknowledges that Jesus will die and be resurrected, but not necessarily through crucifixion.

5. Those who disputed: The verse also mentions that those who disputed the matter of Jesus's death were in doubt and had no certain knowledge. This highlights the uncertainty and lack of understanding surrounding the event.

In essence, while there are variations in how the verse is interpreted, the central message is that Jesus was not killed or crucified by the Jews, and God had a plan to protect him.

(22-06-2025, 05:15 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  I have shown you the differences in practices including recitations...you might get away with your practice in a Shia mosque but are the Shias allowed to follow their practises in a sunni mosque

While both groups pray five times a day, Shias may combine two sets of prayers (Zuhr with Asr, and Maghrib with Isha) into three prayer sessions. Additionally, there are minor differences in the specific actions and recitations during prayer.

(22-06-2025, 05:11 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Pls  for this verse alone..you have numerous interpretations ...you know why? Because the Quran is unclear..that is the main reason! Are the words of God there to cause confusion? 

(22-06-2025, 05:23 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  There are other verses in the Quran where the meaning are not straightforward. For such verses, different interpretations are allowed. 

But most verses in the Quran are clear, with no ambiguity, especially those pertaining to our salvation.

(22-06-2025, 05:41 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Which interpretation truly reflects the word of God? The term Muhaymin can mean guardian, witness, or even the supreme authority. If the meaning remains ambiguous, Moslems might become radicalized, believing that Islam holds absolute supremacy over other religions.....

So should we trust the Quran with many interpretations to be the word of God? The short answer is No! Because there is no clear direction or answers

(22-06-2025, 05:59 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  The Quran is the word of God, verbatim. When the Quran states the universe is expanding, 1,400+ years ago, we only know today that the universe is indeed expanding. Was it critical for Muslims 1,400+ years ago to know that for a fact? The answer is no, it wasn't necessary. 

Is it critical for us to know what really happened to the son of Mary on that day? No, we don't need to know.

Can we Muslims trust the Quran? 100% yes. We believe it is 100% the word of Allah and Allah has assured us that it will remain as our guidance till the end of time.

(22-06-2025, 06:12 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Several Orientalist scholars proposed that the Quran was a product of Prophet Muhammad's own ideas, rather than divine revelation. These scholars, including Richard Bell, Theodor Nöldeke, and W. Montgomery Watt, applied historical and critical analysis to the text, suggesting that Muhammad drew inspiration from existing Jewish and Christian traditions and synthesized them with his own experiences and social context. 
Here's a more detailed look at their arguments:

Richard Bell:
He applied a critical methodology, analyzing the Quran's literary and historical context, and suggested that the text reflected Muhammad's personal experiences and evolving understanding. 

Theodor Nöldeke:
He focused on proving that the Quran was not a direct divine revelation but rather a product of Muhammad's adoption of Christian and Jewish teachings. 

W. Montgomery Watt:
He argued that the early Meccan revelations reflected Muhammad's personal struggles and a growing sense of divine support, rather than direct divine commands.

(22-06-2025, 06:05 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  How did an unlettered man 1,400 years ago know that the universe is expanding?

Who could have given him that information?

(22-06-2025, 06:14 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  Any Muslim scholars who has the same opinion?

(22-06-2025, 06:15 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  His friends!... Keep in mind that he is a leader with many supporters and resources who would stand with him!

(22-06-2025, 06:16 PM)pinkpanther Wrote:  Any moslem scholars who shared the same opinion will face death or punishment

(22-06-2025, 06:18 PM)Ali Imran Wrote:  Argument from silence. That's a fallacy.