[pinkpanther]

Yes, its true that there are many manuscripts of the NT. But none of them are identical and they are all copies. Scholars do not know which manuscripts they were copied from because the originals are lost.

For example if the early copies of John were dated AD90 and it is in consistency with what came later..there will be more or less textual variants..
then it is for sure authentic because the original copy must be written earlier than AD90..maybe AD30-70..

[pinkpanther]

You're mistaken. Those people of Yathrib who welcomed the Prophet were the Arabs, not the Israelites.

Right...but the people of Yathrib did invite the prophet

[pinkpanther]

That Quranic verse, 10:94, is referring to the people of Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم time, who doubted that God would send down revelations to a messenger. God is addressing the doubt they have about revelations.

Wallahu 'alam.

Q10.94

If you ˹O Prophet˺ are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt,

I am using yusuf.." ask those who read before you"
which version of the English translation are you using

[Ali Imran]

Q10.94

If you ˹O Prophet˺ are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt,

I am using yusuf.." ask those who read before you"
which version of the English translation are you using

Ok, can also.

The point is about revelation. It could be that the prophet doubted that the almighty God would send down revelations to the messengers, but I prefer the opinion of other scholars who opined that the verse is addressing the Arabs who never had a prophet sent to them before Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم.

Wallahu 'alam (God knows best).

[Ali Imran]

For example if the early copies of John were dated AD90 and it is in consistency with what came later..there will be more or less textual variants..
then it is for sure authentic because the original copy must be written earlier than AD90..maybe AD30-70..

NT scholars believe the Book of John was written around AD90. However, the earliest complete manuscripts of that book date to the late 2nd century.

[pinkpanther]

Ok, can also.

The point is about revelation. It could be that the prophet doubted that the almighty God would send down revelations to the messengers, but I prefer the opinion of other scholars who opined that the verse is addressing the Arabs who never had a prophet sent to them before Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم.

Wallahu 'alam (God knows best).

Why do you need to go to the scholars opinions to confirm what the prophet said? The prophet knows best and these opinions may differ..

You just need to compare with the different English versions of the verses and you will get the consistency of the message...of cos you can also refute by saying that only the verses in arabic is most accurate

[Ali Imran]

Why do you need to go to the scholars opinions to confirm what the prophet said? The prophet knows best and these opinions may differ..

You just need to compare with the different English versions of the verses and you will get the consistency of the message...of cos you can also refute by saying that only the verses in arabic is most accurate

The "O Prophet" you see in the English translation of that verse is an interpolation, not found in the original Arabic text. Ergo, scholars differ in their exegesis of that verse. I accept both opinions but I prefer the opinion that it is addressing the Arabs.

[pinkpanther]

NT scholars believe the Book of John was written around AD90. However, the earliest complete manuscripts of that book date to the late 2nd century.

We have the earliest copy dated AD90..I have no problem with it...the main issue is the consistency...
If you have 10000 sample sizes with 1000 different 
stories then that is a problem...

[Ali Imran]

We have the earliest copy dated AD90..I have no problem with it...the main issue is the consistency...
If you have 10000 sample sizes with 1000 different 
stories then that is a problem...

Those are fragments, the earliest being the size of a credit card. As to the complete copy of John, it is dated to late 2nd century.

And it doesn't contain the story of the adulterous woman. So you cannot claim consistency.

[pinkpanther]

The "O Prophet" you see in the English translation of that verse is an interpolation, not found in the original Arabic text. Ergo, scholars differ in their exegesis of that verse. I accept both opinions but I prefer the opinion that it is addressing the Arabs.

Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:68):
"Say, O People of the Book, you have no ground to stand on unless you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."
(Acknowledges the scriptures given to Jews and Christians.)

Anyway, the Quran acknowledge what the jews and Christians have during Muhammad's time

[pinkpanther]

Those are fragments, the earliest being the size of a credit card. As to the complete copy of John, it is dated to late 2nd century.

And it doesn't contain the story of the adulterous woman. So you cannot claim consistency.

You are right..that is why a footnote is usually added to tell the readers..the story is added because it resonated with certain theological themes or to condemn a sin..or to emphasize a point

If there wasn't any footnote..yes I agree that they have tamper with the texts

[Ali Imran]

Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:68):
"Say, O People of the Book, you have no ground to stand on unless you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."
(Acknowledges the scriptures given to Jews and Christians.)

Anyway, the Quran acknowledge what the jews and Christians have during Muhammad's time

The Torah came first. They must follow the injunctions therein. Then the Injeel (Gospel), they must follow the injunctions therein. And then the Quran, they must follow the injunctions therein.

[Ali Imran]

You are right..that is why a footnote is usually added to tell the readers..the story is added because it resonated with certain theological themes or to condemn a sin..or to emphasize a point

If there wasn't any footnote..yes I agree that they have tamper with the texts

Yes, that story is a later addition. The original author of that book didn't write them.

[pinkpanther]

Yes, that story is a later addition. The original author of that book didn't write them.

Sure..I grant you that for the sake of argument...but there are many speculations that the story may have circulated independently among early Christians before being added to the Gospel of John. ...

[Ali Imran]

Sure..I grant you that for the sake of argument...but there are many speculations that the story may have circulated independently among early Christians before being added to the Gospel of John. ...

If the story is true and in circulation, why didn't the author of Mark, or Matthew, or Luke, include it in their books?

[pinkpanther]

If the story is true and in circulation, why didn't the author of Mark, or Matthew, or Luke, include it in their books?

 It is also found in some older manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke..Luke's Gospel includes a story about a "sinful woman" who is forgiven by Jesus (Luke 7:36-50)

While not explicitly mentioning adultery, the woman's "sin" and her subsequent forgiveness are implicitly linked to issues of sin and redemption, which can be understood as including sexual sin, including adultery.

[pinkpanther]

The Torah came first. They must follow the injunctions therein. Then the Injeel (Gospel), they must follow the injunctions therein. And then the Quran, they must follow the injunctions therein.

The people of the books are to be judged by their own books..then why did Muhammad enforce Islamic laws on them if they refuse..

[Ali Imran]

The people of the books are to be judged by their own books..then why did Muhammad enforce Islamic laws on them if they refuse..

You're referrring to Quran 5:68, which tells the Israelites that they must go by the Torah, and the Injeel, and the Quran. In short, they must obey all the messengers God has sent. All three revelations are from God. 

You cannot pick and choose which books to believe in and others you discard. Similarly, you cannot pick and choose messengers of God. For us, we must believe in ALL the prophets and messengers sent by God.

[pinkpanther]

You're referrring to Quran 5:68, which tells the Israelites that they must go by the Torah, and the Injeel, and the Quran. In short, they must obey all the messengers God has sent. All three revelations are from God. 

You cannot pick and choose which books to believe in and others you discard. Similarly, you cannot pick and choose messengers of God. For us, we must believe in ALL the prophets and messengers sent by God.

I'm referring to Surah Al-Ma’idah Ayat 47 (5:47 Quran)
and Sunan Abi Dawud 4450

Yusuf Ali
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

The Jews and Christians were to be judged by their own books according to the Quran...so why did Muhammad enforce his own laws on them..in the Hadith Sunan Abi Dawud 4450

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: So I decide in accordance with what the Torah says. He then commanded regarding them and they were stoned to death.

You see that the prophet is using the Torah to pass a judgement on a Jew and not the Quran...so why did he further enforce unbelievers to convert, pay a jizya or face death if the scriptures say that people of the book follow the laws of their books since it is revealed by Allah?

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4450

[pinkpanther]

It would be alright to let the jews and Christians off instead of implementing jizya and death laws since they all worship the same god..

It doesn't make sense since Allah allowed them to practise their own religion to worship Him then ask his believers to pay a jizya or face death?

[cheekopekman]

Any video to support your claim?
Why should they wait until you come to sabah to accept Christianity?
Did you verify their IC  to confirm if they were Muslim?

You have recruited more people to hell.😭😭


“except those shown mercy by your Lord—and so He created them ˹to choose freely˺. And so the Word of your Lord will be fulfilled: “I will surely fill up Hell with jinn and humans all together.”Quran 11:119

No video lah!  They didn't wait for me but have already become converted long even before I was there lah! They were at the rally to testify for the Lord Jesus and publicly declare their faith in Christ lah! All Christians are saved by grace and promised eternity in heaven lah!

[Ali Imran]

I'm referring to Surah Al-Ma’idah Ayat 47 (5:47 Quran)
and Sunan Abi Dawud 4450

Yusuf Ali
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

The Jews and Christians were to be judged by their own books according to the Quran...so why did Muhammad enforce his own laws on them..in the Hadith Sunan Abi Dawud 4450

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: So I decide in accordance with what the Torah says. He then commanded regarding them and they were stoned to death.

You see that the prophet is using the Torah to pass a judgement on a Jew and not the Quran...so why did he further enforce unbelievers to convert, pay a jizya or face death if the scriptures say that people of the book follow the laws of their books since it is revealed by Allah?

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4450

Quran 5:47 and a few preceding verses tell us about the mentality of the children of Israel, similar to the Quranic stories that tell us about the mentality of the people of Noah or Abraham, peace be upon them. It is not a command or injunction for the followers of Prophet Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم but a lesson for us.

And no, our prophet did not force faith upon a people. I'm sure you know that it is foolish to force faith on anybody. You can force people to proclaim faith but you cannot force people to have faith. 

Please ask more if my explanation is not clear enough.

[Ali Imran]

It would be alright to let the jews and Christians off instead of implementing jizya and death laws since they all worship the same god..

It doesn't make sense since Allah allowed them to practise their own religion to worship Him then ask his believers to pay a jizya or face death?

I bring to remembrance the words of Jesus as recorded in the NT. "No one comes to the Father except through me". Similarly, once God has sent Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم to people, they must take the messenger as the way to God.

[Ali Imran]

All Christians are saved by grace and promised eternity in heaven lah!

I'm sure you know about Matthew 7 where Jesus will say "Get away from me" to Christians. And Jesus said, MANY Christians will go to hell, not a few Christians. So, how come you can say ALL Christians will enter heaven?

[cheekopekman]

I'm sure you know about Matthew 7 where Jesus will say "Get away from me" to Christians. And Jesus said, MANY Christians will go to hell, not a few Christians. So, how come you can say ALL Christians will enter heaven?

I know that verse and what Jesus was talking about lah!  He was referring to those fake Christians lah!

[Ali Imran]

I know that verse and what Jesus was talking about lah!  He was referring to those fake Christians lah!

According to Matthew 7, Jesus gave us a clear description of the type of Christians who will go to hell, the Christians who don't follow the Law.

Tio boh?

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus said "Many" and today, we see many Christians who don't follow the Law.

[cheekopekman]

According to Matthew 7, Jesus gave us a clear description of the type of Christians who will go to hell, the Christians who don't follow the Law.

Tio boh?

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus said "Many" and today, we see many Christians who don't follow the Law.

I see you know the Bible quite well lah!

[Ali Imran]

I see you know the Bible quite well lah!

I am not after your praise. I don't care what you think of me.

I'm showing you the error in your faith. You said ALL Christians will go to heaven, but Jesus said MANY will go to hell. Will you not think?

[pinkpanther]

And no, our prophet did not force faith upon a people. I'm sure you know that it is foolish to force faith on anybody. You can force people to proclaim faith but you cannot force people to have faith. 

Please ask more if my explanation is not clear enough.

If the prophet did not force faith upon the people then why did he collect Jizya? Let's go to some Quranic verses and seek clarification..

Quran 9:29
Fight those people of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, do not refrain from what has been prohibited by Allah and His Messenger and do not embrace the religion of truth (Al-Islam), until they pay Jizya (protection tax) with their own hands and feel themselves subdued.

Allah (i.e. Muhammad) limited Jizya only to the “People of the Book” (i.e. Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians) in this verse, while polytheists were not even allowed to live after paying the Jizya. Polytheists either had to accept Islam, or they would be killed after 4 months (or till the end of their covenant). 

Imam Wahidi recorded under the Tafsir of verse 5:105:

Ibn 'Abbas said: “The Messenger of Allah sent a letter to the people of Hajar, whose chief was Mundhir ibn Sawa, inviting them to Islam, or to pay the Jizyah if they chose not to embrace Islam. When Mundhir ibn Sawa received the letter, he showed it to the Arabs, Jews, Christians, Sabeans and Magians who were around him.

 They all agreed to pay the Jizyah and disliked embracing Islam. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, wrote back to him, saying: 'As for the Arabs, do not accept from them except Islam otherwise they will have nothing but the sword. As for the people of the Book and the Magians, accept the Jizyah from them. When this letter was read to them, the Arabs embraced Islam while the people of the Book and the Magians agreed to pay the Jizyah.

I have a few more Quranic verses and tafsirs cited on faith enforced on unbelievers with death as penalty if they reject Islam...but I'm going to stop right here

[pinkpanther]

I bring to remembrance the words of Jesus as recorded in the NT. "No one comes to the Father except through me". Similarly, once God has sent Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم to people, they must take the messenger as the way to God.

Yes I agree that every messenger know the way to God but Jesus went one step further with claims pertaining to equality, power, authority, titles often associated with the Father..