[Oyk]

The crucifixion is mentioned by Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitis, the Didache, the letter to the Hebrews, and the Talmud (although the latter reference is sometimes disputed). That’s not counting references in works with disputed dates of authorship, or the works of the early Church fathers (Clement, c. 89 AD; Ignatius, c. 110 AD). It’s also not counting sources that are no longer extent, such as the creedal formula in the letter to the Galatians (the formula would date to within 1–3 years of the crucifixion), the works of Papis (c. 90 AD, quoted by Eusebius in the fourth century), the pre-Markan passion narrative (conventionally dated to within a decade of the crucifixion), or the hypothetical Q gospel (conventionally dated to the middle of the first century).

I would take my chances with them rather than your Quran which came so much later!

Jay Smith did extensive research and found that the Quran used today was compiled in 1924............in Cairo.  

There were many versions before that.

Still, on its own, the Quran cannot stand.  Stories in the Quran have no head, no tail, and Islamic scholars and historians had been referring to the Gospels (and Psalms and Torah from the Christian Bible) to make sense of the Quranic verses which he nao says are not reliable.

Talking about dates, when "scholars and historians" refer to the hadiths, they are reading conflicting versions of what Muh actually said, and some of the them were written 300 years after Muh died.  He will rebut with "Those are weak hadiths".  

When it comes to the Gospels, he'd say "Throw them all away!  They say different things" just because he does not understand. When it comes to the Hadiths, it's "Oh, they are weak hadiths.  It's OK! It's OK!  They say different things, but never mind, just cherry-pick the ones which fit well in our narrative, so you can follow Muh, use him as your idol or role model!" 

[Ali Imran]

He needs to reply to what you have shown or else viewers will know that he conveniently skip the hard questions..

You know very well why I ignore your buddy. If he can promise me he will never again insult my mother or my family, I will stop ignoring him.

[pinkpanther]

The earliest writings about the alleged crucifixion came from Paul, who wasn't an eyewitness. During his time, other competing Christian sects rejected the idea that Jesus was crucified. How do we know about them? Because the early church fathers wrote about them. 

So, we don't need the Quran for now. We don't need the Muslims. We will only use your scriptures which shows you cannot easily come to a conclusion about the alleged crucifixion because you have not listened to what the other Christians were saying at that time, that they believed Jesus WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.

If you only listen to one side, you are being unjust.

If you insist on taking Paul away....then there are plenty on that list..

The Quran was written about 600 years after the New Testament and changed the story of witnesses who saw Jesus die in the cross, and recorded that in the Bible. ...

Even the enemies of Christianity agreed with the Biblical account of the crucifixion. The great Jewish historian Josephus wrote that the crucifixion happened, and no, he did not just believe the Christians. ....The Christians had no status, so he took the word of other eyewitnesss, the Jewish high priests......

 The great Roman historian Tacitus also recorded that the crucifixion really occurred, and neither did he base his writings on what the lowly Christians said. No, Tacitus took the word of Roman witnesses to the crucifixion such as Pilate and various Roman soldiers.....

So you want me to trust your Quran? You want me to trust Muh? 

[pinkpanther]

You know very well why I ignore your buddy. If he can promise me he will never again insult my mother or my family, I will stop ignoring him.

OK...Noted...in your reply to him, let known to him !

[Ali Imran]

If you insist on taking Paul away....then there are plenty on that list..

The Quran was written about 600 years after the New Testament and changed the story of witnesses who saw Jesus die in the cross, and recorded that in the Bible. ...

Even the enemies of Christianity agreed with the Biblical account of the crucifixion. The great Jewish historian Josephus wrote that the crucifixion happened, and no, he did not just believe the Christians. ....The Christians had no status, so he took the word of other eyewitnesss, the Jewish high priests......

 The great Roman historian Tacitus also recorded that the crucifixion really occurred, and neither did he base his writings on what the lowly Christians said. No, Tacitus took the word of Roman witnesses to the crucifixion such as Pilate and various Roman soldiers.....

So you want me to trust your Quran? You want me to trust Muh? 

No, neither Josephus nor Tacitus interviewed eyewitnesses. Their writings are based on hearsay, just like the Gospels. 

Do you know about the opposing sect of Christianity during the early days? They believed Jesus wasn't crucified. Why? Because they believed Jesus is who he said he is, the promised Messiah and the promised Messiah cannot be killed by people because the scriptures say God will protect him all the time.

[Oyk]

He needs to reply to what you have shown or else viewers will know that he conveniently skip the hard questions..

He only wants to reply to AMA about the Bible so that he can continue to mock and taunt.  He ran away from the other thread because you pinned him down on his hadiths and he was hyperventilating and sweating profusely under the collar..

I see he's happily questioning you about the Gospels here........there's nothing new from him, it's all rinse and repeat.  

[pinkpanther]

No, neither Josephus nor Tacitus interviewed eyewitnesses. Their writings are based on hearsay, just like the Gospels. 

Do you know about the opposing sect of Christianity during the early days? They believed Jesus wasn't crucified. Why? Because they believed Jesus is who he said he is, the promised Messiah and the promised Messiah cannot be killed by people because the scriptures say God will protect him all the time.

Fine, you denied the 4 Gospels, you denied historians now

If the crucifixion didn't happen, then what happened to Jesus? Why your Quran didn't give the full account?

Early Christianity spread through word of mouth.... If he hadn't been crucified, wouldn't conflicting narratives have spread as well?

[Oyk]

No, neither Josephus nor Tacitus interviewed eyewitnesses. Their writings are based on hearsay, just like the Gospels. 

Do you know about the opposing sect of Christianity during the early days? They believed Jesus wasn't crucified. Why? Because they believed Jesus is who he said he is, the promised Messiah and the promised Messiah cannot be killed by people because the scriptures say God will protect him all the time.

Right. More mocking and taunting. 

And you do know that your Ibn this and Ibn that who wrote your Hadiths were born 300 years after Muh died?

Eew...let's not even get there. Your Quran was written by peepur who were born after Muh died in AD 632.  

Which of them had met Muh?  They did not even meet peepur who had met Muh!

So what are you talking about here? 

[pinkpanther]

He only wants to reply to AMA about the Bible so that he can continue to mock and taunt.  He ran away from the other thread because you pinned him down on his hadiths and he was hyperventilating and sweating profusely under the collar..

I see he's happily questioning you about the Gospels here........there's nothing new from him, it's all rinse and repeat.  

What's new from Ah Lee?   Once we get to the Quran and hadiths...there is no way for him to run....I would like to know what he has to say abt your Sunnah attachment....this is an answer only he can answer 

[pinkpanther]

Right. More mocking and taunting. 

And you do know that your Ibn this and Ibn that who wrote your Hadiths were born 300 years after Muh died?

Eew...let's not even get there. Your Quran was written by peepur who were born after Muh died in AD 632.  

Which of them has met Muh?  They have not even met peepur who had met Muh!

So what are you talking about here? 

Good...let's get to the Quran, Hadiths and Muh 

[Ali Imran]

Fine, you denied the 4 Gospels, you denied historians now

If the crucifixion didn't happen, then what happened to Jesus? Why your Quran didn't give the full account?

Early Christianity spread through word of mouth.... If he hadn't been crucified, wouldn't conflicting narratives have spread as well?

I just told you about the sect that believed Jesus was not crucified, because they believe Jesus was the promised Messiah and the promised Messiah cannot be killed because the scriptures that they believed in states that the promised Messiah will be under God's protection and no harm can come to him. The promised Messiah, even though not an immortal, is invincible, according to the scriptures. They believed that strongly. But they were eventually overpowered when the Romans chose Paul's version of Christianity.

[pinkpanther]

I just told you about the sect that believed Jesus was not crucified, because they believe Jesus was the promised Messiah and the promised Messiah cannot be killed because the scriptures that they believed in states that the promised Messiah will be under God's protection and no harm can come to him. The promised Messiah, even though not an immortal, is invincible, according to the scriptures. They believed that strongly. But they were eventually overpowered when the Romans chose Paul's version of Christianity.

So you going to base your belief on a small sect?  
Then a Taoist sect can also refute Jesus and Muh...are you going to take their words?

I reject Muh as the prophet of God too....because God's prophets are supposed to be righteous and they cannot fall easily to a spell, in a trance or fall under black magic according to the scriptures...
Muh was in this state for a year or longer...so he is not a prophet..

[Ali Imran]

So you going to base your belief on a small sect?  
Then a Taoist sect can also refute Jesus and Muh...are you going to take their words?

How do we know if they were the majority or minority? We don't. But we know who eventually became victors, not by right but by might.

Most Christians probably never heard of them, the early followers of Jesus who didn't believe the promised Messiah could be killed.

[pinkpanther]

I am sure you will agree with me that Man still does not fear Death as he should.  I don't mean dying.  We all don't want to die and 99% of us fear death but I am not referring to that.  I am referring to Death in the sense that the Bible means it....Eternal Separation from God.

Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus and Moslems all have their versions of Life after Death which do not have this "Eternal Separation from Yahweh"

Jesus knew that Death would be that Eternal Separation.  God's wrath would be upon Jesus on the Cross at Calvary....

Do you think that Jesus was a coward, a sissy who feared pain and dying in this body?  Hmmm?   

He raised peeepur from the dead, he fed the multitude, walked on water, and healed the blind....if you want to go back even farther in taim, Jesus created the World and all the things in it, living and nonliving.

And mamma mia!  He was scared to die?! 


Wow!  What a transformation.  From fearing death and going into hiding, they went around preaching the Gospel on pain of Death.

And Christ's final words were "It is finished."  What does "It is finished." mean to you?  Dare to answer bo?  Or do you want Bro SimTan to answer for you?  Just don't ask Pink to answer, he will use your Hadith to answer, and you shant like that very much.... 

Yes...since Ah Lee likes to cherry pick...then maybe he can provide more insides to the highlighted in bold

[Oyk]

Good...let's get to the Quran, Hadiths and Muh 

He will run away,  

[pinkpanther]

How do we know if they were the majority or minority? We don't. But we know who eventually became victors, not by right but by might.

Most Christians probably never heard of them, the early followers of Jesus who didn't believe the promised Messiah could be killed.

There is a saying "Gold is not scare of fire" only fire can reveal what is the true content!

You want to trust a sect with no credentials to prove their claims...then you go ahead

[pinkpanther]

He will run away,  

He will claim that you are spreading lies....even if you showed what is written...

[pinkpanther]

As Christians, we place our faith in Jesus to be saved.  We surrender to Him because we know that on our own, we won't make it.

Islam teaches another "way" and he will say that it is the only way, to be saved.  Just recite this 100 taims.

Ah Lee...can you interprete for me? Is this true?

[Oyk]

I just told you about the sect that believed Jesus was not crucified, because they believe Jesus was the promised Messiah and the promised Messiah cannot be killed because the scriptures that they believed in states that the promised Messiah will be under God's protection and no harm can come to him. The promised Messiah, even though not an immortal, is invincible, according to the scriptures. They believed that strongly. But they were eventually overpowered when the Romans chose Paul's version of Christianity.

Did I hear you pontificating that God will protect his prophet?

Is it true that:

1.  Muh was under a black magical spell for a year, thinking that he was having sex with his wife?
2.  Is it true that Muh was killed by food poisoning?

How do these two events synch with your assertion?  

[Ali Imran]

There is a saying "Gold is not scare of fire" only fire can reveal what is the true content!

You want to trust a sect with no credentials to prove their claims...then you go ahead

We know there were followers of Jesus who believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah. 

We know from Psalms the promised Messiah will be protected by God such that even the thorns cannot prick him. 

We know they rejected the idea the Messiah could be killed based on scriptures. They believed he wasn't crucified. 

Their credentials, as you so demand, is the scripture.

[pinkpanther]

We know there were followers of Jesus who believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah. 

We know from Psalms the promised Messiah will be protected by God such that even the thorns cannot prick him. 

We know they rejected the idea the Messiah could be killed based on scriptures. They believed he wasn't crucified. 

Their credentials, as you so demand, is the scripture.

Where are the scriptures? In the Bible isn't it? Where is the crucifixion of Jesus? In the Bible also tiok boh! There you have it!

Don just cherry pick!

Now you can use your historians, scholars to prove to me that the crucifixion was not real....your Quran very in depth tiok boh!

[Ali Imran]

Where are the scriptures? In the Bible isn't it? Where is the crucifixion of Jesus? In the Bible also tiok boh! There you have it!

Don just cherry pick!

Now you can use your historians, scholars to prove to me that the crucifixion was not real....your Quran very in depth tiok boh!

In the ot, the promised Messiah will be protected by God. In the nt, the promised Messiah was killed. 

Why like that?

[pinkpanther]

In the ot, the promised Messiah will be protected by God. In the nt, the promised Messiah was killed. 

Why like that?

There is no why like that! Jesus has a role to fulfill....unlike Muh lah! He has plenty of time for perfume, wine, slaves, women!  

When you are young Muh is your role model because he has all that you wish for...
But at 61yrs old...your priorities should be different now lah....haiya!

[Oyk]

There is no why like that! Jesus has a role to fulfill....unlike Muh lah! He has plenty of time for perfume, wine, slaves, women!  

When you are young Muh is your role model because he has all that you wish for...
But at 61yrs old...your priorities should be different now lah....haiya!

He has not and will never change his priorities.  72 bergions awaiting his eternal manhood...

[Oyk]

We know there were followers of Jesus who believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah. 

We know from Psalms the promised Messiah will be protected by God such that even the thorns cannot prick him. 

We know they rejected the idea the Messiah could be killed based on scriptures. They believed he wasn't crucified. 

Their credentials, as you so demand, is the scripture.

Today is Hari Raya Haji but instead of spending taim with family, you are here mocking and taunting Christians.

[pinkpanther]

[pinkpanther]

Hari Raya Haji is abt Abrahim....where is the holiday for your prophet?

[pinkpanther]

He has not and will never change his priorities.  72 bergions awaiting his eternal manhood...

A prophet who loves wine, perfumes, camels, women and yet still have time to reveal God's relevations.....what can I say abt him?  very good at multi tasking!

[Oyk]

A prophet who loves wine, perfumes, camels, women and yet still have time to reveal God's relevations.....what can I say abt him?  very good at multi tasking!

This is a big reason for why I find it hard to accept Islam.  I asked Ee Mun to explain but he chose to ignore my questions.

Debauchery is the word that sums up the above.

In contrast, the records of Jesus's life on Earth....

1.  His one encounter with a yang girl was...........He raised her from the dead.  Not marrying her.

2.  When wine was mentioned in conjunction with Jesus, it was the miracle of turning water to wine, and it was the best wine...Jesus wasn't getting drunk.

3.  Where riches were offered, Jesus passed that temptation with flying colours in the wilderness.  He did not desire camels.

4.  Where demons were mentioned, He cast them out of a man.  Not getting possessed and ending up hallucinating about having sex, and having an erection for a year.

What was His Sin?  The Jews said that He claimed to be IAM wor.

[Oyk]

Hari Raya Haji and Hari Raya Puasa....

I had thought of sending Hope and him a HRH greeting but felt that it was against my belief to do so.