SG Talk

(02-04-2024, 02:12 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]What if the creator you believe in is not the true creator 

We cannot go wrong as long as we hold on to the belief of THE creator without attaching a worldly object to it. The Christians are doing exactly that, saying Jesus, a worldly object, is God.

If I say I believe in THE creator, I am referring to THE creator.

(02-04-2024, 02:17 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]I believe in gods, not in your sense. I dun believe they're the creator of this world, or universe 

Some gods may believe that they're the true creator of this world, and hence they proclaim it to others as such. How do we know they're true or not true?

So, you actually do believe in one ultimate creator who created this universe but you're saying it cannot be this god or that god.

I like that thinking.

(02-04-2024, 02:17 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]We cannot go wrong as long as we hold on to the belief of THE creator without attaching a worldly object to it. The Christians are doing exactly that, saying Jesus, a worldly object, is God.

If I say I believe in THE creator, I am referring to THE creator.

I respect your belief. But sorry hor, I dun believe 

(02-04-2024, 02:20 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]So, you actually do believe in one ultimate creator who created this universe but you're saying it cannot be this god or that god.

I like that thinking.

No, I didn't say that. 

But let me point you to an argument that many people will pose to you - if your god is the ulitmate creator of the universe, then who created your god?

(02-04-2024, 02:22 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]No, I didn't say that. 

But let me point you to an argument that many people will pose to you - if your god is the ulitmate creator of the universe, then who created your god?

If a god is created, that means that god is not the ultimate creator. The ultimate creator is not himself created. 

If you insist on such a paradigm, then I must tell you that the universe will never come into existence because of this thing known as infinite regression. If a creator must wait to be created, and that creator must wait to be created, it will go on forever (infinity) and therefore the universe will never come into existence. There must be an ultimate creator who is the first necessary cause, the one to say "Be".

(02-04-2024, 02:11 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]Aiyo.. this is common tactic used by people trying to throw a smoke screen and said that one bad sheep does not represent the whole population.

I can only say that I have personally met plenty of such people like Ronny. You may ask me how many is "plenty". I can only say that, if for every 100 christians I meet at least 50 who dun give me a good impression, then that's plenty.

 what can I say...it is just your luck then. 
Why do you care if Christians give you a bad impression...it is your free will to choose what you believe...If you don then leave it be...to each his own.

(02-04-2024, 02:29 PM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ] what can I say...it is just your luck then. 
Why do you care if Christians give you a bad impression...it is your free will to choose what you believe...If you don then leave it be...to each his own.

Did I say that I care? 

And that's what I did, I leave them to themselves, but the impression stays. That is why, I always say, you want to promote your religion the best way is to behave yourself. When people see how you behave they'll start looking at your religion.

(02-04-2024, 02:28 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]If a god is created, that means that god is not the ultimate creator. The ultimate creator is not himself created. 

If you insist on such a paradigm, then I must tell you that the universe will never come into existence because of this thing known as infinite regression. If a creator must wait to be created, and that creator must wait to be created, it will go on forever (infinity) and therefore the universe will never come into existence. There must be an ultimate creator who is the first necessary cause, the one to say "Be".

Then that contradicts your earlier statement that says that all things must have a cause. What causes god to happen?

(02-04-2024, 02:33 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]Then that contradicts your earlier statement that says that all things must have a cause. What causes god to happen?

No, that's not my earlier statement.

The Kalam argument states that everything that begins to exist must have a cause.

The Creator exists. The Creator didn't begin to exist.

(02-04-2024, 01:57 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Have you seen anything that exists but doesn't have a cause?

That is the problem with your thinking. You , ok all of us, are only aware of what you see or experience on Earth. We are so used to something being created that we ASSUME that it is a fact . Everything must have a creator. We are boxed into this thinking.

I differ. The reason is simple - if you think everything must have a creator, it never ends. Ok, I know you will say Allah is the creator and first cause. No one created Allah, right? How do you know? It is only a belief and assumption, no?

Likewise, I can say the universe is always there, it is the first cause, no need for a creator.

That's the loop problem you get when you start to think that everything must be created so there must be a creator..... it is a belief only, bang. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is a fact.

(02-04-2024, 02:35 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]No, that's not my earlier statement.

The Kalam argument states that everything that begins to exist must have a cause.

The Creator exists. The Creator didn't begin to exist.

I'm sure even you can't quite understand how this happens. Then I can also argue that all other things happen by the same way. They exist because they exist.

I've to end this exchange with you because you see, we cannot agree on our beliefs and so it's meaningless to carry this further. You CANNOT convince me, just like you cannot convince all others.

I'm also not interested in knowing if there is a god out there. 

But my advice is, dun be too pushy about your religion. You'll only turn people away. And that applies to both christianity and islam.

(02-04-2024, 02:41 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure even you can't quite understand how this happens. Then I can also argue that all other things happen by the same way. They exist because they exist.

I've to end this exchange with you because you see, we cannot agree on our beliefs and so it's meaningless to carry this further. You CANNOT convince me, just like you cannot convince all others.

I'm also not interested in knowing if there is a god out there. 

But my advice is, dun be too pushy about your religion. You'll only turn people away. And that applies to both christianity and islam.

We are on the same page, bro.

(02-04-2024, 02:32 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]Did I say that I care? 

And that's what I did, I leave them to themselves, but the impression stays. That is why, I always say, you want to promote your religion the best way is to behave yourself. When people see how you behave they'll start looking at your religion.

For me, I don care what happened outside...it is beyond my control . I am not into promoting my religion as well...but I will stand up if my beliefs are under attack.
You can make a point but never to go overboard.

(02-04-2024, 02:38 PM)RichDad Wrote: [ -> ]That is the problem with your thinking. You , ok all of us, are only aware of what you see or experience on Earth. We are so used to something being created that we ASSUME that it is a fact . Everything must have a creator. We are boxed into this thinking.

I differ.  The reason is simple - if you think everything must have a creator, it never ends. Ok, I know you will say Allah is the creator and first cause. No one created Allah, right? How do you know? It is only a belief and assumption, no?

Likewise, I can say the universe is always there, it is the first cause, no need for a creator.

That's the loop problem you get when you start to think that everything must be created so there must be a creator..... it is a belief only, bang. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is a fact.

I've just explained this to Blaster, infinite regress. If you go into that paradigm, the universe will never come to be. The fact that the universe came to be means there is a cause.

And no, the universe cannot create itself. It doesn't have a will.

(02-04-2024, 02:44 PM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]For me, I don care what happened outside...it is beyond my control . I am not into promoting my religion as well...but I will stand up if my beliefs are under attack.
You can make a point but never to go overboard.

I didn't say anything about you hor. I'm referring to all so-called religious followers. Dun try to create animosity by telling others yours is the only true religion (it's ok you believe in it) cos that will mean that others are into fake ones. If you question their religion, then people can also question yours, and I am 100% sure you can't answer. 

Last word, dun tell people they can't go to heaven if they dun believe in Jesus. That's the most maddening thing about christianity.

(02-04-2024, 02:41 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure even you can't quite understand how this happens. Then I can also argue that all other things happen by the same way. They exist because they exist.

I've to end this exchange with you because you see, we cannot agree on our beliefs and so it's meaningless to carry this further. You CANNOT convince me, just like you cannot convince all others.

I'm also not interested in knowing if there is a god out there. 

But my advice is, dun be too pushy about your religion. You'll only turn people away. And that applies to both christianity and islam.

We're in a forum. What I'm doing here is in the spirit of the forum.

I can only thank you for humoring this old pakcik thus far.

(02-04-2024, 02:50 PM)Blasterlord2 Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't say anything about you hor. I'm referring to all so-called religious followers. Dun try to create animosity by telling others yours is the only true religion (it's ok you believe in it) cos that will mean that others are into fake ones. If you question their religion, then people can also question yours, and I am 100% sure you can't answer. 

Last word, dun tell people they can't go to heaven if they dun believe in Jesus. That's the most maddening thing about christianity.

If there is no judgement..Hitler also go heaven liao..you can rebuke Christians who try to hard sell the golden ticket lah.

Hitler playing with mother Teresa.,.that's a wild thought..lol

(02-04-2024, 02:56 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]We're in a forum. What I'm doing here is in the spirit of the forum.

I can only thank you for humoring this old pakcik thus far.

Ali my friend, if you don't believe in the full body resurrection of Jesus Christ and His ascension into heaven, you won't believe it if I say that He is coming back on the Judgement Day lah!

(02-04-2024, 03:41 PM)cheekopekman Wrote: [ -> ]Ali my friend, if you don't believe in the full body resurrection of Jesus Christ and His ascension into heaven, you won't believe it if I say that He is coming back on the Judgement Day lah!

The son of Mary, unto whom be peace, will return to this world shortly. We don't have to wait for Judgement day.

Jesus will appear in Damascus, on the wings of two angels. He will kill the false messiah who is about to appear in Jerusalem. 

We also believe that when Jesus returns, he will break the cross, which means there will be no more Christianity once Jesus is here.

(02-04-2024, 03:56 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]The son of Mary, unto whom be peace, will return to this world shortly. We don't have to wait for Judgement day.

Jesus will appear in Damascus, on the wings of two angels. He will kill the false messiah who is about to appear in Jerusalem. 

We also believe that when Jesus returns, he will break the cross, which means there will be no more Christianity once Jesus is here.

Thanks for your comments lah!

(02-04-2024, 12:57 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Did any of the disciples worship a triune God? The answer is no. Even St Paul did not worship a triune God. There is not a single personality in the entire Bible that worships a triune God.

Please step back a little and look at what I'm saying. Your most important doctrine is not found in the Bible, not taught by God or by any of the many messengers and prophets God sent to people as guidance.

Do a search engine and you will find plenty of Christian scholars telling you otherwise:
 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:27-28)

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (1 Corinthians 12:4-6)

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:14),

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:4-6)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [Colossians 2:8-10]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. {I Timothy 3:16]

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13–14)

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)

The most unique title of Jesus is "son of Mary". No one else have this title. Everybody else is a son of a man, like Isaac, son of Abraham. Only Jesus has that "son of a woman" title.

And yes, the son of God title is not unique to Jesus because many others have that title.

(02-04-2024, 04:01 PM)luncheonmeat Wrote: [ -> ]Do a search engine and you will find plenty of Christian scholars telling you otherwise:
 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:27-28)

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (1 Corinthians 12:4-6)

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:14),

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:4-6)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [Colossians 2:8-10]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. {I Timothy 3:16]

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13–14)

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)

Thank you.

You quoted a lot of verses from the New Testament but none says St Paul or St Peter or St James or any of the disciples worship a triune God.

Also, go to the OT. You will not find a single personality worshipping a triune God.

The only verse that clearly defines the Trinity, 1 John 5:7, has been declared a forgery by Christian scholars. That is why that famous trinity verse has been removed from almost all of the Bible except for 1 or 2.

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

Here are examples of what early Christian writers had to say on the subject of the Trinity:

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

(02-04-2024, 04:11 PM)luncheonmeat Wrote: [ -> ]The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

Here are examples of what early Christian writers had to say on the subject of the Trinity:

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

By the way, the word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible lah!  So hard to explain lah!

To make the whole more clear, that every reader may see what has been added, I shall set down these verses, with the inserted words in brackets.

“1 John 5:6. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 5:7. For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. 1 John 5:8. And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, etc.”

Any man may see, on examining the words, that if those included in brackets, which are wanting in the MSS. and versions, be omitted, there is no want of connection; and as to the sense, it is complete and perfect without them; and, indeed much more so than with them. I shall conclude this part of the note by observing, with Dr. Dodd, “that there are some internal and accidental marks which may render the passage suspected; for the sense is complete, and indeed more clear and better preserved, without it. Besides, the Spirit is mentioned, both as a witness in heaven and on earth; so that the six witnesses are thereby reduced to five, and the equality of number, or antithesis between the witnesses in heaven and on earth, is quite taken away. Besides, what need of witnesses in heaven? No one there doubts that Jesus is the Messiah; and if it be said that Father, Son, and Spirit are witnesses on earth, then there are five witnesses on earth, and none in heaven; not to say that there is a little difficulty in interpreting how the Word or the Son can be a witness to himself.”

https://www.trinitytruth.org/was1john5_7addedtext.html

In John 14:9-10, Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

(02-04-2024, 04:09 PM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you.

You quoted a lot of verses from the New Testament but none says St Paul or St Peter or St James or any of the disciples worship a triune God.

Also, go to the OT. You will not find a single personality worshipping a triune God.

The only verse that clearly defines the Trinity, 1 John 5:7, has been declared a forgery by Christian scholars. That is why that famous trinity verse has been removed from almost all of the Bible except for 1 or 2.

I've posted the answers above. Even without the later additions to St John's gospels, the description of the Holy Trinity is clear.

"Seek and you shall find"

(02-04-2024, 04:28 PM)luncheonmeat Wrote: [ -> ]I've posted the answers above. Even without the later additions to St John's gospels, the description of the Holy Trinity is clear.

"Seek and you shall find"

If the Holy Trinity is clearly defined in the Gospels, it would not have taken 300 years of debating in many ecumenical councils to formulate the apostle creed.

Why did they have to forge the Trinity verse (1 John 5:7) more than a thousand years after Jesus's ascension? Because people were still arguing about the Trinity so they wanted to put it to bed. That's why they had to forge the Trinity verse to kill off all arguments. Remember Servetus? He was burned at the stake by the church for refusing to believe in the Trinity.

(02-04-2024, 04:22 PM)cheekopekman Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, the word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible lah!  So hard to explain lah!

Yes, Bro Ali is looking for the word "Trinity" which does not appear in the Holy Scriptures even though many descriptions of the Holy Triune can be found in the latter part of scriptures after the  Resurrection of Christ.

See here for references to the plural form of One God in the OT:

The doctrine of the Trinity was not clearly formulated until after the New Testament was written. However there are anticipations of the doctrine in the Old Testament.

The Doctrine Is Not Plainly Revealed
The doctrine of the Trinity is not plainly revealed in the Old Testament. Without the teaching of the New Testament we would not be aware of this truth. Although not explicitly mentioned, the basis of the doctrine can be detected when exploring the Old Testament.

There Is A Plural Noun Used With A Singular Verb
A hint of the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. In the remainder of the Old Testament, when Elohim speaks of the true God, it is always used with a singular verb. The conclusion to be drawn is that in some sense God is both singular and plural. The doctrine of the Trinity states this - within the nature of the one God there are three eternal persons.

God Says "Let Us"
We find a further hint of the Trinity in Genesis 1.

Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).

The phrase "let us" again gives the idea of plurality. The word "us" cannot refer to angels because angels do not create.

Therefore, in the first chapter of the Bible we have a hint of the Trinity with the plural title Elohim used with a singular verb and God speaking and saying, "Let us."

More References To God Being Referred To As "Us"
The words "let us" is used elsewhere of God speaking in Genesis. After Adam and Eve sinned the Bible records.

Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).

At the incident at the Tower of Babel we read God saying.

Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech (Genesis 11:7).

Isaiah the prophet recorded God saying.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me" (Isaiah 6:8).

Another Plural Name For God - Maker
There is another instance in the Isaiah where there is a second plural name for God.

For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called (Isaiah 54:5).

The word translated, "Maker" is plural in Hebrew. Therefore we have a second Hebrew word that is plural that is used of God.

The Clearest Old Testament Statement
There is one statement in the Old Testament that gives a fairly clear indication of the Trinity.

Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16,17).

In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord. Consequently these verses identify three distinct Persons who are God without denying the fact there is only one God.

There Is A Distinction Between The Lord In Heaven And The One On Earth
The Old Testament also makes a distinction between the Lord who is in heaven and the one on earth.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_...rt_330.cfm