[pinkpanther]

What is shirk?

You moslem but you don know shirk? See..you learn something new everyday!
idolatry or polytheism. Kissing the black stone is the same as committing shirk!

[Hope]

You moslem but you don know shirk? See..you learn something new everyday!
idolatry or polytheism. Kissing the black stone is the same as committing shirk! 

Shirk is associating partners with God Almighty.For example if someone believes a man  or object can do same thing as God, It is Shirk.
kissing black stone is not harmful or beneficial.
The black stone can not do everything like God.

[cheekopekman]

Okay. I don't have a problem with that command to worship God in spirit and truth. But is there a rule for worship in Judaism? Like worship in the temple at specific times of the day?

Jesus went to many synagogues in the 4 gospels to correct those religious leaders on their errors lah!  He called the Pharisees "hypocrites" lah!

[pinkpanther]

Shirk is associating partners with God Almighty.For example if someone believes a man  or object can do same thing as God, It is Shirk.
kissing black stone is not harmful or beneficial.
The black stone can not do everything like God.

This is wrong. The prophet claims that in the judgement day the black stone will have eyes and a mouth, and it will directly give testimony about those who touched it in a proper manner meaning the stone itself will come to life and benefit you for touching it.... not the All-knowing God who is supposed to know everything

[pinkpanther]

Shirk is associating partners with God Almighty.For example if someone believes a man  or object can do same thing as God, It is Shirk.
kissing black stone is not harmful or beneficial.
The black stone can not do everything like God.

Stone worship is a common form of idolatry, where people would worship a sacred stones rather than a person or a deity. they're known as Baetylus("bet el" in ancient semitic) which means House of El, or House of God, which is also exactly what the Kaaba, the place where the Black stone is placed, is referred as.

Some of these Baetylus were worshipped because they're meteorites, i.e. came from heaven, which is also exactly the source of the Black stone

[Hope]

This is wrong. The prophet claims that in the judgement day the black stone will have eyes and a mouth, and it will directly give testimony about those who touched it in a proper manner meaning the stone itself will come to life and benefit you for touching it.... not the All-knowing God who is supposed to know everything

No.It is not true

[Hope]

Stone worship is a common form of idolatry, where people would worship a sacred stones rather than a person or a deity. they're known as Baetylus("bet el" in ancient semitic) which means House of El, or House of God, which is also exactly what the Kaaba, the place where the Black stone is placed, is referred as.

Some of these Baetylus were worshipped because they're meteorites, i.e. came from heaven, which is also exactly the source of the Black stone

No one bow down/ pray to black stone.
If practice is idolatry, Quran would have mentioned it.

[pinkpanther]

No.It is not true

Not true?

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:961

[S I M T A N]

Jesus went to many synagogues in the 4 gospels to correct those religious leaders on their errors lah!  He called the Pharisees "hypocrites" lah!

A lot of Christians have a misconception about Pharisees, equating their moral character with that of used car salesmen. In truth, the Pharisees were the most law-abiding people of Jesus' day. Sure enough, they were very concerned with obeying the letter of Mosaic law. They remind me of Ali Imran, our resident theological jouster, known for his scrupulous observance of his God's laws, in accordance with the teaching of Islam which mandates adherence to a list of dos and don'ts to satisfy their God.

Jesus told His disciples, "Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 5:20). The Pharisees were also known for their sincere love for God. The great commandment as we know is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbours as much as we love ourselves. That's a pretty tall order to fill. I know I haven't loved God with my whole heart for a minute in my life. Nor have I loved every person in the world as much as I love myself. I admit to bearing ill will toward someone at times. All have fallen short of the glory of God; no one is righteous.

If any man were a candidate for salvation - apart from personal faith in Christ - it would have been Nicodemus, 'a man of the Pharisees' and 'a ruler of the Jews' (John 3:1). He was also part of an elite group called Sanhedrin, charged with important decision-making on complex matters faced by the Jewish people. A man of his religious credentials together with his love for God and his adherence to religious law should be able to qualify for heaven.

Yet Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again" (John 3:7). Jesus wasn't speaking to a practitioner of Paganism, a drug dealer, a a child molester, or a mass murderer. Jesus said that even a leader of God's chosen nation, Israel, still needed to put complete in Him to secure eternal life. We're saved by grace through faith. We're not saved by our faith but by His grace. But we appropriate this grace for ourselves by putting our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It's in this sense that the New Testament says we're 'justified' (i.e. acquitted as innocent in the eyes of the judge) by 'faith.' God has accepted faith in lieu of good deeds and credited it to a believer's account as 'righteousness' (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:5).

[Hope]

Not true?

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:961

This Hadith is not sahih (authentic)grading.Do you know Hadith has grading?
Anyway why do you use Hadith to attack Islamic belief ? Isn’t it like you are hitting with a paper rocket😂?

[cheekopekman]

A lot of Christians have a misconception about Pharisees, equating their moral character with that of used car salesmen. In truth, the Pharisees were the most law-abiding people of Jesus' day. Sure enough, they were very concerned with obeying the letter of Mosaic law. They remind me of Ali Imran, our resident theological jouster, known for his scrupulous observance of his God's laws, in accordance with the teaching of Islam which mandates adherence to a list of dos and don'ts to satisfy their God.

Jesus told His disciples, "Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 5:20). The Pharisees were also known for their sincere love for God. The great commandment as we know is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbours as much as we love ourselves. That's a pretty tall order to fill. I know I haven't loved God with my whole heart for a minute in my life. Nor have I loved every person in the world as much as I love myself. I admit to bearing ill will toward someone at times. All have fallen short of the glory of God; no one is righteous.

If any man were a candidate for salvation - apart from personal faith in Christ - it would have been Nicodemus, 'a man of the Pharisees' and 'a ruler of the Jews' (John 3:1). He was also part of an elite group called Sanhedrin, charged with important decision-making on complex matters faced by the Jewish people. A man of his religious credentials together with his love for God and his adherence to religious law should be able to qualify for heaven.

Yet Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again" (John 3:7). Jesus wasn't speaking to a practitioner of Paganism, a drug dealer, a a child molester, or a mass murderer. Jesus said that even a leader of God's chosen nation, Israel, still needed to put complete in Him to secure eternal life. We're saved by grace through faith. We're not saved by our faith but by His grace. But we appropriate this grace for ourselves by putting our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It's in this sense that the New Testament says we're 'justified' (i.e. acquitted as innocent in the eyes of the judge) by 'faith.' God has accepted faith in lieu of good deeds and credited it to a believer's account as 'righteousness' (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:5).

Well said lah, bro!  Not every Pharisee is the same lah!

[Ali Imran]

A lot of Christians have a misconception about Pharisees, equating their moral character with that of used car salesmen. In truth, the Pharisees were the most law-abiding people of Jesus' day. Sure enough, they were very concerned with obeying the letter of Mosaic law. They remind me of Ali Imran, our resident theological jouster, known for his scrupulous observance of his God's laws, in accordance with the teaching of Islam which mandates adherence to a list of dos and don'ts to satisfy their God.

Yes, you are right to say the Pharisees, from my understanding of the Gospels, were big on the letter of the law but failed to understand the spirit behind the law. That's where Jesus pbuh comes in, to tell them of their erring ways but let's not forget that Jesus also told his followers to listen to their teachings of the law. 

You are critical of our obedience to Allah's guidance and you should be. In the NT, we find two theologically opposing parties. You are with one party (Paul) and I am representing the other (James). Surely you will be critical of my faith as I am with yours. 

You have chosen your faith. You choose to go with Paul.

[cheekopekman]

Yes, you are right to say the Pharisees, from my understanding of the Gospels, were big on the letter of the law but failed to understand the spirit behind the law. That's where Jesus pbuh comes in, to tell them of their erring ways but let's not forget that Jesus also told his followers to listen to their teachings of the law. 

You are critical of our obedience to Allah's guidance and you should be. In the NT, we find two theologically opposing parties. You are with one party (Paul) and I am representing the other (James). Surely you will be critical of my faith as I am with yours. 

You have chosen your faith. You choose to go with Paul.

Apostle Paul was sent by Lord Jesus to preach the gospel, just like all the other apostles lah!  Because Saul persecuted Christians in his earlier years so Jesus changed his name to Paul to preach the good news to those Romans, including Emperor Nero, lah! Read the Book of Acts for their missionary trips lah! The word "apostle" actually means "send" in Greek lah! Wherever Paul went he established churches, e.g. Ephesus, Corinth, etc... his final destination was Spain but he didn't make it lah! Paul was beheaded when he met Nero lah!

[Ali Imran]

Apostle Paul was sent by Lord Jesus to preach the gospel, just like all the other apostles lah!  Because Saul persecuted Christians in his earlier years so Jesus changed his name to Paul to preach the good news to those Romans, including Emperor Nero, lah! Read the Book of Acts for their missionary trips lah! The word "apostle" actually means "send" in Greek lah! Wherever Paul went he established churches, e.g. Ephesus, Corinth, etc... his final destination was Spain but he didn't make it lah! Paul was beheaded when he met Nero lah!

That is what you are told to believe. 

If you are there at that time and you know James is a disciple of Jesus, learning the way and the truth directly from Jesus. And then Paul came along. You have never met Paul and heard him say Jesus came to him in a vision. Then comes the crossroad. Paul brought a new teaching, the Sola Fide. Then James says you shouldn't believe Paul. 

How? Would you have believed Paul? Or James?

[cheekopekman]

That is what you are told to believe. 

If you are there at that time and you know James is a disciple of Jesus, learning the way and the truth directly from Jesus. And then Paul came along. You have never met Paul and heard him say Jesus came to him in a vision. Then comes the crossroad. Paul brought a new teaching, the Sola Fide. Then James says you shouldn't believe Paul. 

How? Would you have believed Paul? Or James?

I think you have mistaken "James" lah!  The disciple of Jesus James, the brother of John, had already been executed by King Herod lah! The one who wrote the epistle was just Jesus' brother lah! Jude was another brother of Jesus lah!

[Lukongsimi]

Jesus went to many synagogues in the 4 gospels to correct those religious leaders on their errors lah!  He called the Pharisees "hypocrites" lah!

They were called brood  of vipers lah

[cheekopekman]

They were called brood  of vipers lah

Jesus rebuked those Pharisees with 7 "woes" lah!  "Woe to you..." they only talked no action NATO lah!

[Lukongsimi]

Jesus rebuked those Pharisees with 7 "woes" lah!  "Woe to you..." they only talked no action NATO lah!

The Scribes and Pharisees preach but do not practice. You have one instructor – Christ. The greatest shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (1) Woe – they shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces; (2) Woe – they travel to make a single proselyte of hell just like themselves; (3) Woe – blind guides, swearing on the altar and on the temple is the same as swearing by God; (4) Woe – they tithe mint, dill, and cumin, but have neglected justice, mercy, and faithfulness, they strain out a gnat and swallow a camel; (5)Woe – they clean the outside, but inside are full of greed and self-indulgence; (6) Woe – they appear beautiful on the outside, but are dead and lawless inside; (7) Woe – they are sons of those who murdered the prophets, how will they escape being sentenced to hell, because they will kill, crucify, flog, and persecute Jesus’ 

[cheekopekman]

The Scribes and Pharisees preach but do not practice. You have one instructor – Christ. The greatest shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (1) Woe – they shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces; (2) Woe – they travel to make a single proselyte of hell just like themselves; (3) Woe – blind guides, swearing on the altar and on the temple is the same as swearing by God; (4) Woe – they tithe mint, dill, and cumin, but have neglected justice, mercy, and faithfulness, they strain out a gnat and swallow a camel; (5)Woe – they clean the outside, but inside are full of greed and self-indulgence; (6) Woe – they appear beautiful on the outside, but are dead and lawless inside; (7) Woe – they are sons of those who murdered the prophets, how will they escape being sentenced to hell, because they will kill, crucify, flog, and persecute Jesus’ 

Jesus told His disciples to do what the Pharisees said but not what they did lah!  They were well-versed in the Law so should obey their teachings lah!

[Ali Imran]

I think you have mistaken "James" lah!  The disciple of Jesus James, the brother of John, had already been executed by King Herod lah! The one who wrote the epistle was just Jesus' brother lah! Jude was another brother of Jesus lah!

That is not the point. We have James, the leader of the church that Peter belongs to at that time, saying Paul is wrong. You choose to believe Paul instead of James, unknowingly.

[pinkpanther]

This Hadith is not sahih (authentic)grading.Do you know Hadith has grading?
Anyway why do you use Hadith to attack Islamic belief ? Isn’t it like you are hitting with a paper rocket😂?

You want sahih? I will give you that

Hadith is integral to the Quran since they are inseparably linked to each other, it is impossible to understand the Quran without reference to the Hadith....

 The Quran is the message, and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself. 

Say if I grant you to just follow the Quran...then there is no evidences to suggest that Allah speaks to Muhammad at all...


https://sunnah.com/search?q=%28kissing%29+of+the+Stone

[Hope]

You want sahih? I will give you that

Hadith is integral to the Quran since they are inseparably linked to each other, it is impossible to understand the Quran without reference to the Hadith....

 The Quran is the message, and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself. 

Say if I grant you to just follow the Quran...then there is no evidences to suggest that Allah speaks to Muhammad at all...


https://sunnah.com/search?q=%28kissing%29+of+the+Stone

This is a different hadith from previous one.
You no need to know  hadith to understand Quran.Can you understand these verse?Do you need any hadith to understand the meaning of this verse?


Quran 4:171”O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion1 or say about Allāh except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allāh and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allāh and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allāh is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allāh as Disposer of affairs.”

[pinkpanther]

This is a different hadith from previous one.
You no need to know  hadith to understand Quran.Can you understand these verse?Do you need any hadith to understand the meaning of this verse?


Quran 4:171”O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion1 or say about Allāh except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allāh and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allāh and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allāh is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allāh as Disposer of affairs.”

OK....so you don need to know the hadith to understand the Quran!
Do you reject the Hadith?

[cheekopekman]

That is not the point. We have James, the leader of the church that Peter belongs to at that time, saying Paul is wrong. You choose to believe Paul instead of James, unknowingly.

I think I know what you mean lah!  Paul had a quarrel with Peter and both went to see James at the Jerusalem Council lah! Are you referring to this case leh?

[Hope]

OK....so you don need to know the hadith to understand the Quran!
Do you reject the Hadith?

We no need Hadith to understand Quran.How ever we do have some Hadith as a reference for practicing five pillars (Testimony, Prayer, Fasting,Charity,Pilgrimage) 
Most of the Hadith are used as a guideline in our daily life , from birth to death.

[Ali Imran]

I think I know what you mean lah!  Paul had a quarrel with Peter and both went to see James at the Jerusalem Council lah! Are you referring to this case leh?

Sola Fide. 

And yes, Paul was summoned to the council for this. And from what we can read, Paul was made to take the Nazarite vow to dispel the rumor that he was teaching people to discard the Law. But he did teach people to discard the Law. That is why most Christians today don't have any more Law. They are lawless.

[pinkpanther]

We no need Hadith to understand Quran.How ever we do have some Hadith as a reference for practicing five pillars (Testimony, Prayer, Fasting,Charity,Pilgrimage) 
Most of the Hadith are used as a guideline in our daily life , from birth to death.

Why do you use the Hadith as a guidance when the Quran says that it is the answer to everything? This is contradicting!

[pinkpanther]

We no need Hadith to understand Quran.How ever we do have some Hadith as a reference for practicing five pillars (Testimony, Prayer, Fasting,Charity,Pilgrimage) 
Most of the Hadith are used as a guideline in our daily life , from birth to death.

The Quran is viewed as an authentic and faultless word of Allah. The Hadith is a collection of narratives about the prophet Muhammad...

If there is no need for Hadith...indirectly there is no need for your prophet...in another word, you reject Islam!

[S I M T A N]

Well said lah, bro!  Not every Pharisee is the same lah!

Exactly! We can't make generalizations about pharisees and tar every single one of them with the same brush. There are self-righteous pharisees with an elephantine ego and there are unpretentious, down-to-earth pharisees with a healthy ego.

For most of us, however, the word 'pharisee' has negative connotations. We read in Luke 18:9-14 that the Pharisee was self-centered, a characteristic of self-righteousness. He trusted in his own righteousness, however illusory; he "prayed with himself" (verse 11), warped up in his own words instead of directing his prayers and supplications to God. The pharisee felt superior to others, namely the tax collector praying nearby. Self-righteous people are so wrapped up in their lives that they degrade and disdain everyone else. Despising others stem from the practice of comparing ourselves with them.

The Pharisee thanked God for making him different from the tax collector, but this sort of comparison is unscriptural. He must have used a tailor-made set of rules to justify his righteousness, mostly a list of negative behaviors he didn't engage in - instead of a list of positive practices. He wasn't unjust, he wasn't prone to vice like gambling, greed; didn't beat his wife, didn't commit adultery, extortion, etc. Plus he believed his biweekly fasting, faithful tithing and his living in compliance with his little list of rules reinforced his righteousness.

Jesus was sharply critical of the sin of hypocrisy, esp in the clergy of His day - the scribes and pharisees. On almost every occasion where Jesus is found rebuking hypocrisy in the N T, His words are directed against the clergy. It is the clergy He addresses in the most stinging terms, saying: "Woe
unto you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites!"

Why does Christ take such a stern stance against hypocrisy? In His encounter with sinful people, we find Him speaking with gentleness and tenderness.
But when He confronts the hypocrites, the tone of His remarks turn sharp. He spoke of the clergy of His day as analogous to whited mausoleums, painted white on the outside but inside filled with dead men's bones.

Maybe it has something to do with the considerable damage hypocrisy causes. One hypocrite can cause the loss not only of his own credibility but the
credibility of his brethren and all they stand for. Jesus warned of leading the "little ones astray" while Paul spoke of people blaspheming because of the bad conduct of the church. When the fraud of the hypocrite is exposed, many may be hurt, disappointed, and disillusioned.

There's no denying that hypocrisy, as a fraud, does exist in the church. But not all pharisees of yore and not all modern-day clergy, ministers are hypocrites. Because all Christians sin does not mean that all Christians are hypocrites. There are hypocrites in the church but the church is not full of hypocrites.

[Ernesto]