[cheekopekman]

Amazing 
Any more stories ?

Stories are plenty lah!  Wait lah!

[Ali Imran]

Go on. What is so contradicting? You tell me how you perceive?

If I ask any Christians why they are not following the teachings of Jesus, they will quote St Paul who taught them that the law is not important to obey, or the prohibition on pork is no longer applicable, or circumcision is unnecessary.

But the disciples rebuked St Paul for teaching all that and St Paul accepted the rebuke, repented and took a Nazarite vow as atonement for the wrongs he did by teaching people to ignore the law.

How do you reconcile that?

[pinkpanther]

If I ask any Christians why they are not following the teachings of Jesus, they will quote St Paul who taught them that the law is not important to obey, or the prohibition on pork is no longer applicable, or circumcision is unnecessary.

But the disciples rebuked St Paul for teaching all that and St Paul accepted the rebuke, repented and took a Nazarite vow as atonement for the wrongs he did by teaching people to ignore the law.

How do you reconcile that?

The nazarite vow was never completed. What is there to reconcile?

I don think this was a true Nazarite vow.

Perhaps Paul might have wanted to take a vow to God in the hope that his journey to Jerusalem would be safe.
Perhaps this was because he wanted the freedom to eat and drink what he wanted in order not to offend people on his journeys
Maybe Paul made the vow in response to the protection given him by God in Corinth.

I'm not in his mind. I don know

[Ali Imran]

The nazarite vow was never completed. What is there to reconcile?

I don think this was a true Nazarite vow.

Perhaps Paul might have wanted to take a vow to God in the hope that his journey to Jerusalem would be safe.
Perhaps this was because he wanted the freedom to eat and drink what he wanted in order not to offend people on his journeys
Maybe Paul made the vow in response to the protection given him by God in Corinth.

I'm not in his mind. I don know

First, do you agree that the disciples did not agree with the teachings of St Paul?

[pinkpanther]

First, do you agree that the disciples did not agree with the teachings of St Paul?

Cut to the chase my friend, why don you directly say paul made up his own religion and often contradict what Jesus said. Eventually it all leads me to this right?

[Ali Imran]

Cut to the chase my friend, why don you directly say paul made up his own religion and often contradict what Jesus said. Eventually it all leads me to this right?

Yes, and that is a rather critical dispute.

Jesus said in order to be saved, you must obey the law. St Paul said no need.

Who do you follow?

[Ali Imran]

Cut to the chase my friend, why don you directly say paul made up his own religion and often contradict what Jesus said. Eventually it all leads me to this right?

Yes, and that is a rather critical dispute.

Jesus said in order to be saved, you must obey the law. St Paul said no need.

Who do you follow?

[pinkpanther]

Yes, and that is a rather critical dispute.

Jesus said in order to be saved, you must obey the law. St Paul said no need.

Who do you follow?

First of all, with regards to the new testament Jesus and Paul were in agreement on pretty much everything. There may be little details here and there they disagreed on but nothing more than that.

There is also no historical evidence Paul made up any teachings or diverted the church in any way. If Paul was willing and able to make up teachings of Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus in Luke or John’s gospel were influenced by Paul, as some claim, couldn’t they have claimed Jesus agreed with him on Gentile circumcision?

[Oyk]

He will invite you to eat satay...but pork satay 

Pork satay jin hojiak. Nicer than beef, chicken and mutton.

The Chinese ketupak also berry nice because they boil with pandan leaves. 

[pinkpanther]

Pork satay jin hojiak. Nicer than beef, chicken and mutton.

The Chinese ketupak also berry nice because they boil with pandan leaves. 

Free range farming piģs some more, eat only vegetables and fruits...best quality pork  

[Oyk]

First of all, with regards to the new testament Jesus and Paul were in agreement on pretty much everything. There may be little details here and there they disagreed on but nothing more than that.

There is also no historical evidence Paul made up any teachings or diverted the church in any way. If Paul was willing and able to make up teachings of Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus in Luke or John’s gospel were influenced by Paul, as some claim, couldn’t they have claimed Jesus agreed with him on Gentile circumcision?

God's laws are absolute, and non negotiable. If you think about it, Adam merely eating a fruit would seem so so small compared with crimes like chopping off heads done by terrorists whom Muslims say are erm .. Muslims! 

Crimes committed by the Japanese like using human bodies to experiment and calibate the effectiveness of chemicals on them certainly would make eating a fruit seem like nothing more serious than just a little child being a tad too mischievous, that's all. 

Yet it only took one sin and what would seem so petty for the entire Creation to turn upside down and for Adam and his wife to be banished from the garden. Such is how high the bar is when it comes to obeying God and His injunction.

The Ten Commandments say Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife and King David sent his general to the battlefront to have him killed so that he could marry his widow. Even Moses had his moments of weakness.

Clearly Man cannot enter heaven by his own merit. All men are born with the seed of sin that's hardwired in our DNA. We sin simply because we are sinners. That's our nature and we do what is natural to and for us, which is, sin.

Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to come. He paid the penalty for sin as well as fulfilled the Law. We are now saved by grace through faith and not by works, doing something which we can never succeed in doing, that's obeying the law without breaking it even once. Adam merely ate a fruit. We all did much worse I am sure. How can we ever fulfill the requirements of the law?

There is no contradiction between what Jesus and Paul said. Don't believe the twisting that bugger is making who will tell you that Jesus is only a prophet but a leaser one than Muhammad, and that Paul was a liar who preached a false doctrine.

With his fingers, he typed St Paul but behind his keyboard, we can't see the smirk in his face when he typed "St".

I could rebut him, and there's another post he wrote in which he lied. If he wants to mock Christianity using the Bible, I can do the same with his religion but we and he know that we have to keep silent in Singapore. Meanwhile he mocks and taunts and lies. 

[Ali Imran]

First of all, with regards to the new testament Jesus and Paul were in agreement on pretty much everything. There may be little details here and there they disagreed on but nothing more than that.

There is also no historical evidence Paul made up any teachings or diverted the church in any way. If Paul was willing and able to make up teachings of Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus in Luke or John’s gospel were influenced by Paul, as some claim, couldn’t they have claimed Jesus agreed with him on Gentile circumcision?

What about obedience to the law? Jesus clearly said that is key to salvation. Previous prophets before him also said it is key to salvation, like in Ezekiel. But Paul taught otherwise.  

Am I being devious for seeing a clear disagreement between the teachings of the prophets, including Jesus, and Paul?

[Ali Imran]

No, I did not say St Paul is a liar. I don't hold that view about him.

[Ali Imran]

God's laws are absolute, and non negotiable. If you think about it, Adam merely eating a fruit would seem so so small compared with crimes like chopping off heads done by terrorists whom Muslims say are erm .. Muslims! 

We Muslims believe that after Adam repented, God showed mercy to him and erased his sin. 

When we read Ezekiel 18, we see the same merciful and forgiving God. As long as we are sorry for our transgressions, repent, and obey the commandments, God will erase our sins.

It is great that we have a common ground to share, that God is merciful and forgiving.

[pinkpanther]

What about obedience to the law? Jesus clearly said that is key to salvation. Previous prophets before him also said it is key to salvation, like in Ezekiel. But Paul taught otherwise.  

Am I being devious for seeing a clear disagreement between the teachings of the prophets, including Jesus, and Paul?

There is really no reason to believe Paul is at odds with the teachings of Jesus. Most of the arguments trying to show he was can be deconstructed easily.

Every coin has 2 sides and you my friend is only showing me your biase opinions. Please look or google for the other side.

[Oyk]

There is really no reason to believe Paul is at odds with the teachings of Jesus. Most of the arguments trying to show he was can be deconstructed easily.

Every coin has 2 sides and you my friend is only showing me your biase opinions. Please look or google for the other side.

Even the learned Pharisees could not understand the parables Jesus told.  Some were not even parables but just one liner statements but they could not understand it because the time was not due yet..

They would be BLIND to the truths like he who must not be mentioned.

Now, how do you think a bunch of fishermen or some low ses bums that Jesus rounded up, who probably could not write or write with the erudition of a scholar, or of an Old Testament scholar, could understand what Jesus was saying.............and doing?  And they were the disciples of Jesus.

But make no mistake.  The master-disciple relationship wasn't one like those of Chinese kungfu movies where the Shaolin master passed on his martial art to someone and over time, the disciple would become the next master.  They were not going to become Jesuses, going around raising peepur from the dead and making MORE statements and telling more parables, because those which come after, as the Bible had warned, are a false gospel. We must be alert, and not be deceived.  

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to reveal God's Word.  Without a revelation from the Holy Spirit, the peepur would not understand the profound messages hidden in Jesus' teachings.  The disciples would argue with Paul just like the Pharisees had with Jesus, quoting the Mosaic laws.  They argued with God (the Son) using the Law which God (the Father) gave to Moses, not knowing that the Law would soon be fulfilled through Christ's absolute obedience to it even in pain of death!

On the road to Damascus, Paul was indeed blessed to be chosen to be the Apostle, to receive the Holy Spirit and His guidance.  Through erm...St Paul, the mysteries of Christ's teachings were unlocked.

Christ came not to abolish the Law as someone suggested, but to fulfill its requirement. The penalty for Sin is Death.  That was the first Law ever given by God, even before the Ten Commandments were given to the peepur through Moses.  Christ came to pay the penalty.  The debt had been settled.  We are now saved by grace through faith.

As Christians, we must be careful to hold fast to God's Word.  Satan will come along with a false doctrine,  The Bible had warned us already.  Do not believe.

[Oyk]

We Muslims believe that after Adam repented, God showed mercy to him and erased his sin. 

When we read Ezekiel 18, we see the same merciful and forgiving God. As long as we are sorry for our transgressions, repent, and obey the commandments, God will erase our sins.

It is great that we have a common ground to share, that God is merciful and forgiving.

You claimed to be "discussing" the Bible using the Bible.  And you quoted Ezekiel when it suited your agenda.  You'd quote the Bible selectively.

But your opening sentence is "We Muslim..." which is so obvious that you were using the Quran to support your arguments.  What a big contradiction between what you said and what you actually say.

"We Muslims" believe a lot of things.  Muhammad is your prophet who is greater than Jesus who is a lesser prophet.  Paul lied with a false doctrine..  The one who was to come was Muhammad, not the Holy Spirit.  Jesus's death was completely unnecessary for the remission of sin. All we need to do is to just apologise to God, and God will say "It's OK. Don't mention it." You Muslims believe that Adam did just that and he is now a free man. All these are your beliefs, and in Singapore, I can be locked up if I write too much.  You are OK to mock Christianity. 

[pinkpanther]

You claimed to be "discussing" the Bible using the Bible.  And you quoted Ezekiel when it suited your agenda.  You'd quote the Bible selectively.

But your opening sentence is "We Muslim..." which is so obvious that you were using the Quran to support your arguments.  What a big contradiction between what you said and what you actually say.

"We Muslims" believe a lot of things.  Muhammad is your prophet who is greater than Jesus who is a lesser prophet.  Paul lied with a false doctrine..  The one who was to come was Muhammad, not the Holy Spirit.  Jesus's death was completely unnecessary for the remission of sin.  All we need to do is to just apologise to God, and God will say "It's OK.  Don't mention it."  You Muslims believe that Adam did just that and he is now a free man.  All these are your beliefs, and in Singapore, I can be locked up if I write too much.  You are OK to mock Christianity. 

He came to attack the Bible on the pretext of "spreading the good news" that is to accept Islam. Interestingly the fellow has preached nothing from the quran..pretty clear what his intentions are..

[Oyk]

He came to attack the Bible on the pretext of "spreading the good news" that is to accept Islam. Interestingly the fellow has preached nothing from the quran..pretty clear what his intentions are..

Although I am not a scholar of Islam, I know enough about his religion, the Quran and Muhammad to say a lot which will only get me into trouble with the authorities in Singapore.

He will not mention the Quran and Muhammad because he will lose.  And I will also not mention the Quran and Muhammad  for the reason mentioned in the preceding para...

And this is the way he argues even as Zedmaster in edmw.  Just mock Christianity, quote the Bible which he only believes partially (and according to his interpretation of it), and tell everybody that Paul was a liar who preached a false gospel.

His modus operandi in baiting peepur is to tell them "we have some common ground" and that's because he believes in the Pentateuch, BUT yes, as I said, only according to his interpretation of the five books.  Christ's Death on the Cross is the bedrock of Christianity, without which there can be no salvation.  Reducing Him to a mere prophet and a lesser one than Muhammad, and saying that His death was not even needed, is what Satan wants us to believe.  

Christianity is the only religion that is based on this very fundamental belief:  Christ's Death on the Cross.  Anybody who comes along and says it is not necessary, or it never happened, or that He was only a prophet, we need to reject him....tell him to "be gone".  Amen. 

[Ali Imran]

You claimed to be "discussing" the Bible using the Bible.  And you quoted Ezekiel when it suited your agenda.  You'd quote the Bible selectively.

But your opening sentence is "We Muslim..." which is so obvious that you were using the Quran to support your arguments.  What a big contradiction between what you said and what you actually say.

"We Muslims" believe a lot of things.  Muhammad is your prophet who is greater than Jesus who is a lesser prophet.  Paul lied with a false doctrine..  The one who was to come was Muhammad, not the Holy Spirit.  Jesus's death was completely unnecessary for the remission of sin.  All we need to do is to just apologise to God, and God will say "It's OK.  Don't mention it."  You Muslims believe that Adam did just that and he is now a free man.  All these are your beliefs, and in Singapore, I can be locked up if I write too much.  You are OK to mock Christianity. 

I have never said St Paul lied. I do not hold that opinion about St Paul. I don't believe he lied.

[Ali Imran]

There is really no reason to believe Paul is at odds with the teachings of Jesus. Most of the arguments trying to show he was can be deconstructed easily.

Every coin has 2 sides and you my friend is only showing me your biase opinions. Please look or google for the other side.

I have given you 2 different teachings, one taught by all the prophets including Jesus, and the other taught by St Paul.

Christians will then tell me that St Paul came with a different teaching, and that is exactly my point.

[Ali Imran]

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to reveal God's Word.  Without a revelation from the Holy Spirit, the peepur would not understand the profound messages hidden in Jesus' teachings.  The disciples would argue with Paul just like the Pharisees had with Jesus, quoting the Mosaic laws.  They argued with God (the Son) using the Law which God (the Father) gave to Moses, not knowing that the Law would soon be fulfilled through Christ's absolute obedience to it even in pain of death!

How does one get the Holy Spirit to reveal God's Word to them? Tell me which Christian denominations are guided by the Holy Spirit. They all seem to have different teachings.

[Lukongsimi]

Don’t answer him or he won’t stop mocking.

[Ali Imran]

He came to attack the Bible on the pretext of "spreading the good news" that is to accept Islam. Interestingly the fellow has preached nothing from the quran..pretty clear what his intentions are..

Do you remember the story of Adam from the Quran? I think I repeated that story a few times already.

Do you remember the subtle but historically accurate fact about which prophet met the king of Egypt and which met with the Pharoah of Egypt? I mentioned this to you which you ignored. 

You've ignored them all and now you're accusing me of bringing nothing from the Quran.

You're an honorable person, and you have demonstrated that quality to me. I ask that you be fair to me, which is also an honorable thing to do.

If you don't appreciate the discourse, please quit. If nobody is talking to me, I too will quit this.

[pinkpanther]

Don’t answer him or he won’t stop mocking.

Yes, I will stop all these discussions from now. Waste time only. Religious discussion is sensitive issue...if badly manage..the authorities will come knocking on the door.


Ali can find something else to feed his ego.. 
Word of advice - Do not anyhow quote from the Bible and interpret it from your muslim perspectives.I suggest you register and attend Bible classes so that you will better understand the Bible. 

[Oyk]

How does one get the Holy Spirit to reveal God's Word to them? Tell me which Christian denominations are guided by the Holy Spirit. They all seem to have different teachings.

They did not teach their followers to chop heads off if what others believe is something else. 

[pinkpanther]

Do you remember the story of Adam from the Quran? I think I repeated that story a few times already.

Do you remember the subtle but historically accurate fact about which prophet met the king of Egypt and which met with the Pharoah of Egypt? I mentioned this to you which you ignored. 

You've ignored them all and now you're accusing me of bringing nothing from the Quran.

You're an honorable person, and you have demonstrated that quality to me. I ask that you be fair to me, which is also an honorable thing to do.

If you don't appreciate the discourse, please quit. If nobody is talking to me, I too will quit this.

I send you another kung-fu master Oyk. His kung-fu is real. Show it to Ali my friend.. 

[Ali Imran]

Yes, I will stop all these discussions from now. Waste time only. Religious discussion is sensitive issue...if badly manage..the authorities will come knocking on the door.


Ali can find something else to feed his ego.. 
Word of advice - Do not anyhow quote from the Bible and interpret it from your muslim perspectives.I suggest you register and attend Bible classes so that you will better understand the Bible. 

Why do you need to get personal with me? I'd rather you just stick to the arguments I've presented. 

Tell me which denomination of Christianity has the correct Bible classes.

[Ali Imran]

They did not teach their followers to chop heads off if what others believe is something else. 

Ok. So you don't know which denomination has the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[pinkpanther]

Why do you need to get personal with me? I'd rather you just stick to the arguments I've presented. 

Tell me which denomination of Christianity has the correct Bible classes.

If I said from my point of view,  you said I am spreading lies. How many times have you mention that. This is a dangerous game my friend and I want no part in it.

[Ali Imran]

If I said from my point of view,  you said I am spreading lies. How many times have you mention that. This is a dangerous game my friend and I want no part in it.

Please be fair to me. I have never said you lied.