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S I M T A N · 10-06-2025, 12:37 AM

(09-06-2025, 07:58 PM)Lukongsimi Wrote: U go up the cross nailed, tortured and pierced and wear thorns see u consider it as sacrifice
died for 3 days see whether you can take it or not?
U will cry tarkoot saya tarkoot!

Jesus Actually Died On The Cross

"Before we can show that Jesus rose from the dead, we need to show that he really did die. The Qur'an claims that Jesus only pretended to be dead (Sura 4:157), and many skeptics have said that he appeared to be dead, possibly being drugged, but revived while in the tomb. It is no miracle for a live man to walk out of a tomb. For the resurrection to have any significance, Jesus had to be dead first. To show this, we must consider several points.

1. There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was drugged. He turned down the common painkiller that was usually given to crucifixion victims (Mark 15:23). Just before death, he was given a sip of sour wine to relieve his parched throat, but not enough to intoxicate (v.36). The obvious agony and his death cry do not fit the picture of a man who is about to pass out in a drug-induced state (Luke 23:46).

2. The heavy loss of blood makes death highly probable. While praying in the garden, his extreme emotional state caused him to swear so that "His sweat became like drops of blood" (Luke 22:44). He had been beaten and whipped repeatedly the night before his crucifixion with a Roman scourge (a three-lash whip with pieces of bone or metal on the ends), which tore the flesh of the skeletal muscles and set the stage for circulatory shock. A crown of thorns had been pushed onto his skulls. He was probably in serious to critical condition before they crucified him. Then he suffered five major wounds between nine in the morning and just before sunset (Mark 15:25,33). Four of these were caused by nails used to fix him to the cross. We know from remains of Palestinian crucifixion victims that these nails were five to seven inches long and about three-eighths inch square.

3. When his side was pierced with a spear, water and blood flowed out (John 19:34). The best evidence suggests that this was a thrust given by a Roman soldier to ensure death. The spear entered through the rib cage and pierced his right lung, the sack around the heart, and the heart itself, releasing both blood and pleural fluids. Jesus was unquestionably dead before they removed him from the cross and probably before his wound was inflicted. The wounds in both his wrists and feet would have severed the major nerves. The final wound to his side would have been fatal in itself.

4. The standard procedure for crucifixion was to break the victim's legs so that he could not lift himself to exhale. The victim would then be asphyxiated as his lungs filled with carbon dioxide. Be clear on this: they broke everyone's legs. Yet, the professional Roman executioners declared Christ dead without breaking his legs (John 19:33). There was no doubt in their minds.

5. Pilate asked for assurance that Jesus was really dead before releasing the body for burial (Mark 15:44).

6. Jesus was embalmed in about seventy-five to one hundred pounds of spices and bandages and laid in a guarded tomb (John 19:39-40).

7. In the article "On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ," the Journal of the American Medical Society concludes: "Clearly, the weight of historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted and supports the traditional view that the spear, thrust between his right ribs, perforated not only the right lung but also the pericardium and heart and thereby ensured his death. Accordingly, the interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge."

8. Not only did Jesus really die, but he also rose in the same physical body in which he died. Many skeptics have become Christians while trying to refute the resurrection. If we look at the other explanations, we will have an opportunity to also see the evidence that conclusively shows that only resurrection can explain all the facts."

When Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, God paid visits to this earth. After fellowship with Him was broken by sin and disobedience, God continued to show His desire for communion with mankind. His ultimate expression of love for mankind was the giving of His own Son to die a merciless death on a cruel cross. Through Christ's death and resurrection, fellowship between God and man again became a possibility.

Jesus' life is truly unique. He is God in the flesh - fully human and fully God. As perfect man, He alone is able to stand in the place of guilty men and women. As perfect God, He alone is able to satisfy divine justice. That makes Jesus' death unique, which is why His crucifixion is the climax of the gospel.

Ali Imran · 10-06-2025, 06:51 AM

(09-06-2025, 08:29 PM)pinkpanther Wrote: What nonsense analogy..so can you pls apply suicide and sacrifice on Jesus?

That's what I'm asking you.

If Jesus willingly goes to the cross to sacrifice himself, that's like the analogy I gave, where a father sacrifices himself by committing suicide for the sake of his children.

Ali Imran · 10-06-2025, 07:07 AM

(10-06-2025, 12:37 AM)S I M T A N Wrote: Jesus Actually Died On The Cross

"Before we can show that Jesus rose from the dead, we need to show that he really did die. The Qur'an claims that Jesus only pretended to be dead (Sura 4:157), and many skeptics have said that he appeared to be dead, possibly being drugged, but revived while in the tomb. It is no miracle for a live man to walk out of a tomb. For the resurrection to have any significance, Jesus had to be dead first. To show this, we must consider several points.

1. There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was drugged. He turned down the common painkiller that was usually given to crucifixion victims (Mark 15:23). Just before death, he was given a sip of sour wine to relieve his parched throat, but not enough to intoxicate (v.36). The obvious agony and his death cry do not fit the picture of a man who is about to pass out in a drug-induced state (Luke 23:46).

2. The heavy loss of blood makes death highly probable. While praying in the garden, his extreme emotional state caused him to swear so that "His sweat became like drops of blood" (Luke 22:44). He had been beaten and whipped repeatedly the night before his crucifixion with a Roman scourge (a three-lash whip with pieces of bone or metal on the ends), which tore the flesh of the skeletal muscles and set the stage for circulatory shock. A crown of thorns had been pushed onto his skulls. He was probably in serious to critical condition before they crucified him. Then he suffered five major wounds between nine in the morning and just before sunset (Mark 15:25,33). Four of these were caused by nails used to fix him to the cross. We know from remains of Palestinian crucifixion victims that these nails were five to seven inches long and about three-eighths inch square.

3. When his side was pierced with a spear, water and blood flowed out (John 19:34). The best evidence suggests that this was a thrust given by a Roman soldier to ensure death. The spear entered through the rib cage and pierced his right lung, the sack around the heart, and the heart itself, releasing both blood and pleural fluids. Jesus was unquestionably dead before they removed him from the cross and probably before his wound was inflicted. The wounds in both his wrists and feet would have severed the major nerves. The final wound to his side would have been fatal in itself.

4. The standard procedure for crucifixion was to break the victim's legs so that he could not lift himself to exhale. The victim would then be asphyxiated as his lungs filled with carbon dioxide. Be clear on this: they broke everyone's legs. Yet, the professional Roman executioners declared Christ dead without breaking his legs (John 19:33). There was no doubt in their minds.

5. Pilate asked for assurance that Jesus was really dead before releasing the body for burial (Mark 15:44).

6. Jesus was embalmed in about seventy-five to one hundred pounds of spices and bandages and laid in a guarded tomb (John 19:39-40).

7. In the article "On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ," the Journal of the American Medical Society concludes: "Clearly, the weight of historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted and supports the traditional view that the spear, thrust between his right ribs, perforated not only the right lung but also the pericardium and heart and thereby ensured his death. Accordingly, the interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge."

8. Not only did Jesus really die, but he also rose in the same physical body in which he died. Many skeptics have become Christians while trying to refute the resurrection. If we look at the other explanations, we will have an opportunity to also see the evidence that conclusively shows that only resurrection can explain all the facts."

When Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, God paid visits to this earth. After fellowship with Him was broken by sin and disobedience, God continued to show His desire for communion with mankind. His ultimate expression of love for mankind was the giving of His own Son to die a merciless death on a cruel cross. Through Christ's death and resurrection, fellowship between God and man again became a possibility.

Jesus' life is truly unique. He is God in the flesh - fully human and fully God. As perfect man, He alone is able to stand in the place of guilty men and women. As perfect God, He alone is able to satisfy divine justice. That makes Jesus' death unique, which is why His crucifixion is the climax of the gospel.

The Qur'an claims that Jesus only pretended to be dead (Sura 4:157), That is false. The Quran made no such claim of Jesus pretending to be dead.

One Gospel says all the disciples fled. That means none of the disciples witnessed the event. Then, after many decades, the author of the book of John decided to change the story, saying the disciple John was there. Why is that significant? For the same reason why they decided to forge a verse to confirm the Trinity. Many disbelieved Jesus was crucified and their disbelief cannot be refuted by anybody because no one can confirm because there were no eyewitnesses. So, in order to silence the opposition, they decided to change the story.

How do we know that there were people who held the position that Jesus wasn't crucified? Because the early church fathers spoke about them.

Ali Imran · 10-06-2025, 07:16 AM

(09-06-2025, 08:30 PM)cheekopekman Wrote: "...He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer..." (Isaiah 53:9-10) In fact, the entire chapter 53 of Isaiah was about the sufferings and death of Jesus lah! Prophet Isaiah prophesied and Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy lah!

The main reason why the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah was that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

So, the messianic prophecies about the Messiah that were taught to them by many prophets before Jesus didn't include a Messiah who would be God and who would die for the sins of mankind.

pinkpanther · 10-06-2025, 09:01 AM

(10-06-2025, 07:16 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: The main reason why the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah was that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

So, the messianic prophecies about the Messiah that were taught to them by many prophets before Jesus didn't include a Messiah who would be God and who would die for the sins of mankind.

The main reason why the moslems did not reject Jesus as their Messiah was that Jesus did fulfill the messianic prophecies.

So according to the Quran, what are these prophecies? Big Grin

Ali Imran · 10-06-2025, 09:06 AM

(10-06-2025, 09:01 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: The main reason why the moslems did not reject Jesus as their Messiah was that Jesus did fulfill the messianic prophecies.

So according to the Quran, what are these prophecies?

Your premise is flawed.

We accept the son of Mary pbuh as the Messiah simply because Allah says he is the Messiah, not because he fulfilled any messianic prophecies.

pinkpanther · 10-06-2025, 09:08 AM

(10-06-2025, 09:06 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: Your premise is flawed.

We accept the son of Mary pbuh as the Messiah simply because Allah says he is the Messiah, not because he fulfilled any messianic prophecies.

My premise is not flawed.

We accept the son of Mary as the Messiah simply because God says he is the Messiah, and because he fulfilled all messianic prophecies....

Mana prophecies from the Quran Big Grin

Lukongsimi · 10-06-2025, 09:11 AM

Ah goon still cannot understand what is sacrifice n commit suicide
he is trying to find fault with Jesus the Saviour because his religion don’t have any n he is unsure where he is gg after Kong Kar Keow?

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