[pinkpanther]

We have gone through this a few times already. 

The Quran only tells us that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. On that point, all scholars agree. Other than that, the scholars can only make educated guesses.

No, the Quran cannot be wrong because the Quran is the verbatim word of God. That is our faith, and you can, at best, disbelieve, but you cannot falsify our faith.

So your Quran can have different interpretations and they are all right correct? Am I wrong to take the Quran by Muhammad Asad?

Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.

[Ali Imran]

So your Quran can have different interpretations and they are all right correct? Am I wrong to take the Quran by Muhammad Asad?

Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.

Yes, Muhammad Asad, a Jew from Ukraine who became Muslim, believed Jesus already died, but not from the crucifixion.

I already told you. The only clear information given in the Quran is that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. Other than that, our scholars can only give us their best educated guess.

[pinkpanther]

Yes, Muhammad Asad, a Jew from Ukraine who became Muslim, believed Jesus already died, but not from the crucifixion.

I already told you. The only clear information given in the Quran is that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. Other than that, our scholars can only give us their best educated guess.

There are a few more Quran that says that Allah took Jesus life away....

You are right that the Quran did not say that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross....he was bailed out by the innocent substitute....all of that may seems authentic to you until Allah did the unthinkable! 

It is not befitting of Allah to do this! It is something that you can picture Allah willing Himself in His book speaking to Jesus and does the unthinkable to him....
This should not happen ...because God is merciful

[Ali Imran]

There are a few more Quran that says that Allah took Jesus life away....

You are right that the Quran did not say that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross....he was bailed out by the innocent substitute....all of that may seems authentic to you until Allah did the unthinkable! 

It is not befitting of Allah to do this! It is something that you can picture Allah willing Himself in His book speaking to Jesus and does the unthinkable to him....
This should not happen ...because God is merciful

The Quran did not say Jesus was bailed out by an innocent substitute. And the Quran did say Jesus was NOT killed nor crucified.

The rest is your opinion, which you made without knowledge. As usual, pretending to know.

[pinkpanther]

The Quran did not say Jesus was bailed out by an innocent substitute. And the Quran did say Jesus was NOT killed nor crucified.

The rest is your opinion, which you made without knowledge. As usual, pretending to know.

Hilali Khan

 And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) )

You don even know your Quran! Yesterday you said you believe in the words of the Quran...now you roti prata

[Ali Imran]

Hilali Khan

 And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) )

You don even know your Quran! Yesterday you said you believe in the words of the Quran...now you roti prata

Again. I will repeat the truth. The Quran did not say Jesus was bailed out by an innocent substitute. 

What you quoted was written by a man who gave his best educated guess on what happened. The fact remains. The Quran did not say there was a substitution.

[pinkpanther]

Again. I will repeat the truth. The Quran did not say Jesus was bailed out by an innocent substitute. 

What you quoted was written by a man who gave his best educated guess on what happened. The fact remains. The Quran did not say there was a substitution.

The Noble Qur'an[4] is a translation of the Quran by Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali....

It was translated by them...ok so you don want to deal with it.  ..ok then it is a corrupted Quran

[Ali Imran]

The Noble Qur'an[4] is a translation of the Quran by Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali....

It was translated by them...ok so you don want to deal with it.  ..ok then it is a corrupted Quran

LOL

I already told you. The Quran did not say there was a substitute. 

What you quoted was their best educated guess on what happened. 

Go look for other translations. You will see that other scholars will interpret it differently.

[pinkpanther]

LOL

I already told you. The Quran did not say there was a substitute. 

What you quoted was their best educated guess on what happened. 

Go look for other translations. You will see that other scholars will interpret it differently.

The Quran by Hilali Khan said that Jesus was substituted

Islamic Scholars:
Many Islamic scholars, particularly within the context of Tafsir (Quranic exegesis), support the substitution theory. 

You don know your deen bro.....you claim to be a moslem

[Ali Imran]

The Quran by Hilali Khan said that Jesus was substituted

Islamic Scholars:
Many Islamic scholars, particularly within the context of Tafsir (Quranic exegesis), support the substitution theory. 

You don know your deen bro.....you claim to be a moslem

Here, 3 scholars who didn't subscribe to the substitution theory.

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. - Pickthall

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. - Yusuf Ali

and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed; - Arberry

[Ali Imran]

The Quran by Hilali Khan said that Jesus was substituted

Islamic Scholars:
Many Islamic scholars, particularly within the context of Tafsir (Quranic exegesis), support the substitution theory. 

You don know your deen bro.....you claim to be a moslem

Do you know why some Muslim scholars chose the substitution theory? Because of the Gospel according to Barnabas, which states that another person was substituted in place of Jesus. 

You're welcome.

[pinkpanther]

Here, 3 scholars who didn't subscribe to the substitution theory.

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. - Pickthall

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. - Yusuf Ali

and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed; - Arberry

Sawar

and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

Literal

And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him
 surely/certainly.

Hk saheeh

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain

Qaribulla

and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah. ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him.

[pinkpanther]

Do you know why some Muslim scholars chose the substitution theory? Because of the Gospel according to Barnabas, which states that another person was substituted in place of Jesus. 

You're welcome.

Yes...bart erhman even had a laugh about this theory ..He said that Jesus was laughing at the substitute from below the cross and apparently the substitute does not think it is so funny

[Ali Imran]

Literal

And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him
 surely/certainly.

resembled 
 - made to appear (Yusuf Ali) - appeared so (Pickthall) - a likeness (Arberry)

[pinkpanther]

resembled 
 - made to appear (Yusuf Ali) - appeared so (Pickthall) - a likeness (Arberry)

So we have a mixed opinions ..what is the truth?

[Ali Imran]

Yes...bart erhman even had a laugh about this theory ..He said that Jesus was laughing at the substitute from below the cross and apparently the substitute does not think it is so funny

The Gospel of Barnabas was written long before the Quran, and some Muslim scholars believe that it is a viable theory.

Wallahu 'alam.

[Ali Imran]

So we have a mixed opinions ..what is the truth?

Allah knows. And Jesus, too.

[pinkpanther]

The Gospel of Barnabas was written long before the Quran, and some Muslim scholars believe that it is a viable theory.

Wallahu 'alam.

So can we say that the Quran is false or it is corrupted by the hands of men?

[pinkpanther]

Allah knows. And Jesus, too.

Yes they know but I don know! So if I don know the truth, how can I trust the Quran?

[Ali Imran]

So can we say that the Quran is false or it is corrupted by the hands of men?

No, cannot.

You have been trying to do that for so long already, but till now, you have failed. As a matter of fact, nobody has been able to falsify the Quran and it has been 1,400+ years already.

[Ali Imran]

Going down for dinner now. Lots of happening here at the hotel. Tomorrow is their national day.

[pinkpanther]

No, cannot.

You have been trying to do that for so long already, but till now, you have failed. As a matter of fact, nobody has been able to falsify the Quran and it has been 1,400+ years already.

However, I have pointed out the discrepancies within the Quran, and I believe I have sufficient grounds to argue that the Quran is either false or corrupted.

[Lukongsimi]

No, cannot.

You have been trying to do that for so long already, but till now, you have failed. As a matter of fact, nobody has been able to falsify the Quran and it has been 1,400+ years already.

The claim that the Quran contains "grave mistakes" is a contested one. Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of God and is free of error. However, some scholars and critics point to perceived contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and textual variants as evidence of errors. 

Arguments for errors: 

• Textual variants:
  There are different recitations and textual variations within the Quran, such as those related to the Hafs and Warsh versions. 
  
  
• Historical inaccuracies:
  Some critics argue that the Quran contains historical inaccuracies or inconsistencies. 
  
  
• Contradictions:
  Certain verses are perceived as contradicting each other, or contradicting other religious texts. 
  
  
• Interpretational challenges:
  Some verses require complex interpretations to reconcile apparent inconsistencies, which some find problematic, according to Quora
  

[pinkpanther]

Going down for dinner now. Lots of happening here at the hotel. Tomorrow is their national day.

Camel meat is halal..you should try

[Lukongsimi]

Going down for dinner now. Lots of happening here at the hotel. Tomorrow is their national day.

Talk only no pic to show

[pinkpanther]

The claim that the Quran contains "grave mistakes" is a contested one. Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of God and is free of error. However, some scholars and critics point to perceived contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and textual variants as evidence of errors. 

Arguments for errors: 

• Textual variants:
  There are different recitations and textual variations within the Quran, such as those related to the Hafs and Warsh versions. 
  
  
• Historical inaccuracies:
  Some critics argue that the Quran contains historical inaccuracies or inconsistencies. 
  
  
• Contradictions:
  Certain verses are perceived as contradicting each other, or contradicting other religious texts. 
  
  
• Interpretational challenges:
  Some verses require complex interpretations to reconcile apparent inconsistencies, which some find problematic, according to Quora
  

Good findings lah bro 

[Lukongsimi]

Pachik is an Indonesian ?
Never heard he went NS

[Ali Imran]

Pachik is an Indonesian ?
Never heard he went NS

Served as PNSF in 82 to 84.

[Lukongsimi]

Camel meat is halal..you should try

Later he might dream of camel crying lol

[Lukongsimi]

Served as PNSF in 82 to 84.

U born in sg or malang ?