[Ali Imran]

According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.

What good news are you bringing to us Ali?
Where are the parents of your profit now? You know where!

Do you think that is what a verse in the Quran says? Are you sure?

[pinkpanther]

Ok. Jesus cannot be God because he said he has a God. That is my claim. You cannot say "oh.. that's when he was a human so that's why he has a God at that time" because Jesus is always God too. So refute my claim as you said you are here to do.

You have this all well prepared!  
Didn't I make it clear in my earlier posts?

[Oyk]

Definitely not satan. We can rule that one out using the criteria given by Jesus in Mark 3.

If it is Michael, he is also an angel from God but that angel is not known to be a messenger so it is unlikely to be Michael or Mikail. The angel that is known to be a messenger is Gabriel or Jibril.

May I therefore take it from you that nothing in the Quran said that it wasn't Micheal or Satan. It's only your assumption that it couldn't be them?

I wish to remind you again that I am not here to study Mark. The Quran has no answers for a lot of things and I can fully understand why you often had to refer to another religion's Holy Bible. 

It's enough if you tell me that the Quran does not rule out Michael and Satan. Your "It can't be Satan" is not relevant to the question I asked.

[pinkpanther]

Do you think that is what a verse in the Quran says? Are you sure?

This means that everybody - be he a believer or an infidel - will go across Hell. However, this does not mean that they would go to stay in it; they would only go across it. But even if the word means "entry", then the pious believers on entry into Hell will feel no discomfort because its fires will cool down and will do no harm to them.

So what happen to those who cross hell?
It doesn't sexplain!

[pinkpanther]

How do I know Jesus has a God? Because he said so in your Bible in John 20:17.

You must now admit that what I said about Jesus having a God is true.

Jesus died as a man on the cross...he bores the sins and experience death like all others....what is wrong for calling God!
It is his relation to his father! God the father was the God of Jesus. ...The Father is the God of the son,....but it doesn’t imply inferiority, only a difference in roles

[pinkpanther]

I also believe in the Hadith.

The Quran didn't say specifically Jibreel is an angel. The Bible also didn't specifically say Adam was a human but we all believe Adam was a human, right?

So we can all agreed that Jibreel is not an angel according to the quran!
See ...Ali! It is that easy! Now we are on the right track! 

If jibreel is not an angel...then which angel pass the relevations to the profit?
You want to go to the hadith?

[Ali Imran]

May I therefore take it from you that nothing in the Quran said that it wasn't Micheal or Satan. It's only your assumption that it couldn't be them?

I wish to remind you again that I am not here to study Mark. The Quran has no answers for a lot of things and I can fully understand why you often had to refer to another religion's Holy Bible. 

It's enough if you tell me that the Quran does not rule out Michael and Satan. Your "It can't be Satan" is not relevant to the question I asked.

You are trying to say that it wasn't Gabriel and that it may be Michael or satan. 

Let's first rule out satan. The criteria I'm using to rule out satan as the author or bringer of the Quran is the same one Jesus used on the Pharisees. Even if Jesus had not said it, I would still be using that criteria. The Quran's first recipients were the pagans of Makkah in the 7th century, telling them to stop worshipping idols and worship only Allah, be true to their words, be kind to their parents, don't kill their daughters, be just, and so on. Jesus said satan cannot do that, give such a message. For people like the pagans in Makkah, satan would leave them alone, or he would not tell them to stop doing all the bad and evil things they used to do, chief of them is worshipping false gods like alLat. So, that is how we can rule satan out.

[pinkpanther]

Allah said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O ‘Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh ul Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)]…” [al-Maidah 5:110]

Allah supported the Messiah (peace be upon him) with Ruh al-Qudus as He mentions in this ayah. In al-Baqarah Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We gave ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel).] [al-Baqarah 2:87]

“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Ruh ul Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)]” [al-Baqarah 2:253]

Let's be more clear! Gabriel is indeed the Holy spirit!
Now Ali..Don make me look like I am bringing the good news on behalf of Islam.. you ought to share this knowledge first!

[Ali Imran]

Allah said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O ‘Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh ul Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)]…” [al-Maidah 5:110]

Allah supported the Messiah (peace be upon him) with Ruh al-Qudus as He mentions in this ayah. In al-Baqarah Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We gave ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel).] [al-Baqarah 2:87]

“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Ruh ul Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)]” [al-Baqarah 2:253]

Let's be more clear! Gabriel is indeed the Holy spirit!
Now Ali..Don make me look like I am bringing the good news on behalf of Islam.. you ought to share this knowledge first!

The actual meaning of ruh al qudus is the holy spirit. Our scholars identified that spirit in those verses as Gabriel, that is why you see the name in parenthesis.

[cheekopekman]

No, not the Bible. Christians scholars said, 1 John 5:7 which says "There are 3 records that bear in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and these 3 are one" is a forged verse. 

If you're using the NIV for example, you will not find that verse because it has been taken out. Some Bible still insists on leaving it there.

Ali is right about the NIV Bible lah!  Some verses in KJV are omitted in NIV lah! So we need to read other versions for more interpretations lah!

[Ali Imran]

Allah said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O ‘Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh ul Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)]…” [al-Maidah 5:110]

Allah supported the Messiah (peace be upon him) with Ruh al-Qudus as He mentions in this ayah. In al-Baqarah Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We gave ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel).] [al-Baqarah 2:87]

“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Ruh ul Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)]” [al-Baqarah 2:253]

Let's be more clear! Gabriel is indeed the Holy spirit!
Now Ali..Don make me look like I am bringing the good news on behalf of Islam.. you ought to share this knowledge first!

Btw, our holy spirit has a name, Gabriel, and he is not God, only an angel.

What is the name of your Holy Spirit whom you believe is God?

[pinkpanther]

Btw, our holy spirit has a name, Gabriel, and he is not God, only an angel.

What is the name of your Holy Spirit whom you believe is God?

Now he is your holy spirit!  A moment ago he was only an angel!

[Ali Imran]

Now he is your holy spirit!  A moment ago he was only an angel!

Now only now. The holy spirit sent to Prophet Jesus pbuh has always been known as Jibril to us from the very beginning.

[pinkpanther]

Now only now. The holy spirit sent to Prophet Jesus pbuh has always been known as Jibril to us from the very beginning.

Tell me something that I don know...Don tell me after I have provided the sauce!

[pinkpanther]

Jesus defeated Satan as a man who is weak, Muh had Satan screwed his mind thinking he was having sex for a year...  Don believe ask Aisha!

[Ali Imran]

Jesus defeated Satan as a man who is weak, Muh had Satan screwed his mind thinking he was having sex for a year...  Don believe ask Aisha!

Is Jesus God to you? If so, why do you say God defeated satan as though there was a competition?

[Lukongsimi]

Is Jesus God to you? If so, why do you say God defeated satan as though there was a competition?

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

[Oyk]

You are trying to say that it wasn't Gabriel and that it may be Michael or satan. 

Let's first rule out satan. The criteria I'm using to rule out satan as the author or bringer of the Quran is the same one Jesus used on the Pharisees. Even if Jesus had not said it, I would still be using that criteria. The Quran's first recipients were the pagans of Makkah in the 7th century, telling them to stop worshipping idols and worship only Allah, be true to their words, be kind to their parents, don't kill their daughters, be just, and so on. Jesus said satan cannot do that, give such a message. For people like the pagans in Makkah, satan would leave them alone, or he would not tell them to stop doing all the bad and evil things they used to do, chief of them is worshipping false gods like alLat. So, that is how we can rule satan out.

Para One
I am not trying to say anything.  You are being paranoid here. What's troubling you? I was only trying to learn the Quran from you but you disappointed me time and again by evading and giving me answers to questions I did not ask.

Para Two
I would like to remind you that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.  I only asked you to show me the verse in the Quran which says that it was Gabriel and not Michael or Satan.  And you started quoting from another religion's Bible.

[pinkpanther]

Sunan Abu-Dawud 28:3883:

Our Lord is Allah Who is in the heaven, holy is Thy name, Thy command reigns supreme in the heaven and the earth, as Thy mercy in the heaven, make Thy mercy in the earth; forgive us our sins, and our errors; Thou art the Lord of good men; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and remedy, and remedy from Thy remedy on this pain so that it is healed up

 Ehh..very familiar leh...copy from where?
My lord's prayer becomes a Muslim prayer ah...

[Lukongsimi]

We are nothing but dust save by grace of God
Earth is temporary 
Live day by day 
Nothing to brag about 
Won’t bring your treasures along 
God is a consuming fire
In order to enter the Kingdom of God u got to be obedient reborn of water and spirit
pride comes before a fall 
The sacrifices of God is a broken spirit and a contrite heart

[Lukongsimi]

“Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NIV

[Ali Imran]

Para One
I am not trying to say anything.  You are being paranoid here. What's troubling you? I was only trying to learn the Quran from you but you disappointed me time and again by evading and giving me answers to questions I did not ask.

Para Two
I would like to remind you that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.  I only asked you to show me the verse in the Quran which says that it was Gabriel and not Michael or Satan.  And you started quoting from another religion's Bible.

First, can we rule out satan using that criteria I've mentioned yesterday?

[Oyk]

First, can we rule out satan using that criteria I've mentioned yesterday?

1. I asked you to show me the Qur'anic verse which says that the angel was Jibril.  You replied that there was no verse that said so. 

2.  The foundations of Christianity and Islam rest on the teachings of Paul and Muh respectively. If Muh is right..and I had been trying so hard to get clarifications from you but only got twists and turns....then Paul is the false prophet and let's not mince words here, a false prophet preaches Satanic doctrines. 

So I shant rule out Satan whether it's the Quran or Acts or the Epistles. I am prepared to be open minded and not be defensive and if Paul is indeed the agent of Lucifer disguised as an angel of light, I will admit it. 

As for you, you refuse to have a gentleman's dialogue. You only want to start by assuming that it can't be Satan without any proof from the Qur'an, and went to borrow from another religion's Bible which you did so many times in all your arguments whenever the Quran had no answer. You tiptoed around the Bible cherry picking verses which suited your narrative. 

To be honest, Hope had the better approach in "evangelizing". He put in efforts to show us the Qur'anic verses. You didn't. Instead of quoting the Quran, you quoted another religion's Bible to either support your arguments if it suited you, or to mock which you denied.

And you know it, Satan is working through either Paul or Muh to deceive the world. I will not rule out Satan in Paul's teachings which you have insinuated but shant say that the angel who pinned Muh to the ground with a supernatural force, thrice, till he went home in FEAR was Jibril unless you can show me proof.

[Oyk]

Sunan Abu-Dawud 28:3883:

Our Lord is Allah Who is in the heaven, holy is Thy name, Thy command reigns supreme in the heaven and the earth, as Thy mercy in the heaven, make Thy mercy in the earth; forgive us our sins, and our errors; Thou art the Lord of good men; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and remedy, and remedy from Thy remedy on this pain so that it is healed up

 Ehh..very familiar leh...copy from where?
My lord's prayer becomes a Muslim prayer ah...

When they pray they recite the Quran. Of course they would be reciting the above along the way.

If the deceiver wants to sound credible, we can expect a lot of what he says to be true. Satan will tell 99 parts truth to deceive the world with that one part lie.

The question is, who was it who pinned Muh with such a force that would cause someone who dared to go to war to go under a blanket? It's like someone reducing Buakaw, a fearless Muay Thai boxer or Mike Tyson to a little mouse that saw a tiger 

At this point of Ali's arguments, it's either Muh who had encountered Satsn or Paul who's preaching the anti-gospel of Satan. PS. I added the word anti because gospel means good news and if Paul was teaching us the way to hell, that's not quite good news lorh.

[cheekopekman]

First, can we rule out satan using that criteria I've mentioned yesterday?

Start another thread on SATAN only lah, Ali!

[pinkpanther]

When they pray they recite the Quran. Of course they would be reciting the above along the way.

The question is, who was it who pinned Muh with such a force that would cause someone who dared to go to war to go under a blanket? It's like someone reducing Buakaw, a fearless Muay Thai boxer or Mike Tyson to a little mouse that saw a tiger 

At this point of Ali's arguments, it's either Muh who had encountered Satsn or Paul who's preaching the anti-gospel of Satan. PS. I added the word anti because gospel means good news and if Paul was teaching us the way to hell, that's not quite good news lorh.

Since when you see Ali explaining any quranic verse or hadith in details? The stats shows none!...Don expect an answer from him for he might not even be a Muslim! Hope is 100%...

His knowledge of the quran and the hadiths are very shallow! I don believe he is 61 as he claimed!

[Ali Imran]

1. I asked you to show me the Qur'anic verse which says that the angel was Jibril.  You replied that there was no verse that said so. 

2.  The foundations of Christianity and Islam rest on the teachings of Paul and Muh respectively. If Muh is right..and I had been trying so hard to get clarifications from you but only got twists and turns....then Paul is the false prophet and let's not mince words here, a false prophet preaches Satanic doctrines. 

So I shant rule out Satan whether it's the Quran or Acts or the Epistles. I am prepared to be open minded and not be defensive and if Paul is indeed the agent of Lucifer disguised as an angel of light, I will admit it. 

As for you, you refuse to have a gentleman's dialogue. You only want to start by assuming that it can't be Satan without any proof from the Qur'an, and went to borrow from another religion's Bible which you did so many times in all your arguments whenever the Quran had no answer. You tiptoed around the Bible cherry picking verses which suited your narrative. 

To be honest, Hope had the better approach in "evangelizing". He put in efforts to show us the Qur'anic verses. You didn't. Instead of quoting the Quran, you quoted another religion's Bible to either support your arguments if it suited you, or to mock which you denied.

And you know it, Satan is working through either Paul or Muh to deceive the world. I will not rule out Satan in Paul's teachings which you have insinuated but shant say that the angel who pinned Muh to the ground with a supernatural force, thrice, till he went home in FEAR was Jibril unless you can show me proof.

Ok thank you for that. I appreciate that you explain it to me clearly. I do blame myself for not making my arguments clearer. 

I dismiss the notion that the Quran came from satan because the Quran states in a few places that satan is our clear and mortal enemy. The Quranic teachings are all anti-satanic, like worshipping only 1 God, being kind to our aging parents, the orphans, the poor, those in need, and so on. There are plenty more teachings that are not what one would expect from satan. 

I also dismiss the notion that it was satan who gave it to our prophet صلي الله عليه وسلم. The prophet's first main audience was the pagans, telling them to stop worshipping false gods, which is something satan would not want them to do. 

So, if we rule out satan, that leaves us with only the 2 angels, Gabriel and Michael. Tradition has it that it has always been Gabriel who delivers messages from God. Plus, our Hadith states that the angel identifies him as Jibril at the 2nd meeting. So, we have no doubt that it was Gabriel.


So there, I didn't reference the Bible this time.

[Ali Imran]

When they pray they recite the Quran. Of course they would be reciting the above along the way.

If the deceiver wants to sound credible, we can expect a lot of what he says to be true. Satan will tell 99 parts truth to deceive the world with that one part lie.

The question is, who was it who pinned Muh with such a force that would cause someone who dared to go to war to go under a blanket? It's like someone reducing Buakaw, a fearless Muay Thai boxer or Mike Tyson to a little mouse that saw a tiger 

At this point of Ali's arguments, it's either Muh who had encountered Satsn or Paul who's preaching the anti-gospel of Satan. PS. I added the word anti because gospel means good news and if Paul was teaching us the way to hell, that's not quite good news lorh.

No, we would not be reciting the above at all. Reciting them would nullify our daily prayers.

[Ali Imran]

This means that everybody - be he a believer or an infidel - will go across Hell. However, this does not mean that they would go to stay in it; they would only go across it. But even if the word means "entry", then the pious believers on entry into Hell will feel no discomfort because its fires will cool down and will do no harm to them.

So what happen to those who cross hell?
It doesn't sexplain!

Salvation comes from God. We all will see hell and we all will want to be protected from it. 

None of us can fully explain whenever the message is talking about the hereafter. The hereafter will be beyond our imagination. Fyi, we recite the prayer asking for protection from hell (wa qinaa azab an naar) every day.

[Ali Imran]

Jesus died as a man on the cross...he bores the sins and experience death like all others....what is wrong for calling God!
It is his relation to his father! God the father was the God of Jesus. ...The Father is the God of the son,....but it doesn’t imply inferiority, only a difference in roles

Ok. We can agree the Son has a God. Does the Father have a God?