[pinkpanther]

No video lah!  They didn't wait for me but have already become converted long even before I was there lah! They were at the rally to testify for the Lord Jesus and publicly declare their faith in Christ lah! All Christians are saved by grace and promised eternity in heaven lah!

Bro, that is the foundation ..it doesn't mean that one can disregard actions and continue living a life of sin without consequences. 

If so.. rapists can keep raping while declaring their faith in Christ

[Ali Imran]

while polytheists were not even allowed to live after paying the Jizya. Polytheists either had to accept Islam, or they would be killed after 4 months (or till the end of their covenant). 

Please tell me where you got that from?

[Ali Imran]

Yes I agree that every messenger know the way to God but Jesus went one step further with claims pertaining to equality, power, authority, titles often associated with the Father..

Jesus also said the Father is greater than he.

And he also said the Father is the only true God.

[pinkpanther]

Please tell me where you got that from?

there are disagreements between the 4 Sunni Imams. Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (and present-day Salafists) all rule that except for Jews/Christians/Magians, all other non-Muslims (like Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus etc.) should be killed all over the world. They don't have any right to stay alive even after paying Jizya

Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik said that the killing of all other non-Muslims was limited only to the Arab polytheists.

[Ali Imran]

there are disagreements between the 4 Sunni Imams. Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (and present-day Salafists) all rule that except for Jews/Christians/Magians, all other non-Muslims (like Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus etc.) should be killed all over the world. They don't have any right to stay alive even after paying Jizya

Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik said that the killing of all other non-Muslims was limited only to the Arab polytheists.

Again, please tell me where you got that from. Who told you that?

[pinkpanther]

Jesus also said the Father is greater than he.

And he also said the Father is the only true God.

Jesus calling his Father the only true God doesnt negate the fact about His divinity...the Father also address the Son as God and that all authorities and power were given to him...

Islam always say Allah gave the messengers the permission to do miracles...everything is about seeking permission from Allah..but the same cannot be said about Jesus of the Bible

[pinkpanther]

Again, please tell me where you got that from. Who told you that?

The Quran told me that..and if you dig a little further..you unearth the can of worms..
You can read them from Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik..just google

Quran 9:5:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah (i.e. if they become Muslims), let them [go] on their way.

[Ali Imran]

Jesus calling his Father the only true God doesnt negate the fact about His divinity...the Father also address the Son as God and that all authorities and power were given to him...

Islam always say Allah gave the messengers the permission to do miracles...everything is about seeking permission from Allah..but the same cannot be said about Jesus of the Bible

Does "only" mean exclusivity?

Peter said Jesus was a man through whom God did miracles. Similarly, all other miracles were by God, through the man God chose.

[Ali Imran]

The Quran told me that..and if you dig a little further..you unearth the can of worms..
You can read them from Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik..just google

Quran 9:5:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah (i.e. if they become Muslims), let them [go] on their way.

Quran 9:5 didn't say that Muslims are to kill all non-Muslims all over the world. That verse is very specific, referring to a particular war between the Muslims and the pagans of Makkah.

And please show me where any of our 4 esteemed Imams say we should kill all non-Muslims all over the world.

You have the chance to say you're mistaken.

[pinkpanther]

Does "only" mean exclusivity?

Peter said Jesus was a man through whom God did miracles. Similarly, all other miracles were by God, through the man God chose.

Acts 2:22 states: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Peter said that Jesus was approved by God and all the works did through Him...that is "He and His Father are one"....does this apply to other messengers? It didn't say so

[pinkpanther]

Quran 9:5 didn't say that Muslims are to kill all non-Muslims all over the world. That verse is very specific, referring to a particular war between the Muslims and the pagans of Makkah.

And please show me where any of our 4 esteemed Imams say we should kill all non-Muslims all over the world.

You have the chance to say you're mistaken.

No..you have the chance to show me what the 4 Imams said were wrong..

[Ali Imran]

No..you have the chance to show me what the 4 Imams said were wrong..

All my life as a student of Islam, I have never once come across a teaching from any of our 4 esteemed Imams telling us that we should kill non-Muslims all over the world.

So, please show me where you heard our 4 Imams taught that.

[Ali Imran]

Acts 2:22 states: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Peter said that Jesus was approved by God and all the works did through Him...that is "He and His Father are one"....does this apply to other messengers? It didn't say so

So too was Prophet Moses, through whom God did miracles. He too was approved by God, but that doesn't make him a God.

So, God's miracles through Prophet Jesus don't make him a God.

[pinkpanther]

So too was Prophet Moses, through whom God did miracles. He too was approved by God, but that doesn't make him a God.

So, God's miracles through Prophet Jesus don't make him a God.

That is a good rebuke but Moses did ask God to perform miracles. Specifically, in Exodus 4:10-17, Moses expresses his doubt and reluctance...

In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus declares that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me....Can the Father share His authority? Can Allah share His authority?

Is Jesus a creator since He is able to create life in the Quran?

[Ali Imran]

That is a good rebuke but Moses did ask God to perform miracles. Specifically, in Exodus 4:10-17, Moses expresses his doubt and reluctance...

In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus declares that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me....Can the Father share His authority? Can Allah share His authority?

Is Jesus a creator since He is able to create life in the Quran?

The fact that authority was given to Jesus shows he is not God. 

Yes, the miracles of Jesus include the clay bird coming to life. Again, that doesn't make him God.

[pinkpanther]

The fact that authority was given to Jesus shows he is not God. 

Yes, the miracles of Jesus include the clay bird coming to life. Again, that doesn't make him God.

Jesus declares that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." 

Can God's authority be shared?

Still not God? How about all those claims that says that He was with the Father from the beginning of times? You have to read all the claims and not be selective of a few..

Ok..Jesus made a bird from clay and it came to life..so how many creators of life are there in the Quran?

[pinkpanther]

Please tell me where you got that from?

https://islam.stackexchange.com/question...-pay-jizya

[Ali Imran]

Jesus declares that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." 

Can God's authority be shared?

Still not God? How about all those claims that says that He was with the Father from the beginning of times? You have to read all the claims and not be selective of a few..

Ok..Jesus made a bird from clay and it came to life..so how many creators of life are there in the Quran?

When God gives the judges the authority to put people to death, does that make them God? 

Again, the miracles performed by Jesus were from God.

[Ali Imran]

https://islam.stackexchange.com/question...-pay-jizya

Nothing in there about our esteemed Imams teaching us that we should kill all non-Muslims.

So, can we conclude you're mistaken in saying that?

[cheekopekman]

Bro, that is the foundation ..it doesn't mean that one can disregard actions and continue living a life of sin without consequences. 

If so.. rapists can keep raping while declaring their faith in Christ

Those rapists will be prosecuted and dealt with by law lah!  They still have eternal life in heaven lah! If they confess their sins God will still forgive them lah!

[Ali Imran]

Those rapists will be prosecuted and dealt with by law lah!  They still have eternal life in heaven lah! If they confess their sins God will still forgive them lah!

omg

I can't believe you're saying that. Did you think before saying that?

[pinkpanther]

Nothing in there about our esteemed Imams teaching us that we should kill all non-Muslims.

So, can we conclude you're mistaken in saying that?

Let's not veer away from the point..And yes, your prophet did force faith upon people. I'm sure you know it as well...I can give you more findings on the jizya which is non imposed on the people. There are mixed answers.


From whom is jizya to be taken?]

Al-Qurtubi:

The people of knowledge have disagreed about this. Abu Hanifa and his companions, Thawri, Shafi'i, Ahmad, and Abu Thawr said: It is only taken from People of Scripture, Arab or non-Arab. As for polytheists, the verse (Qur'an 9:5) obliges their killing with no option of jizya, unlike People of Scripture. It is taken from Magians also by the Sunna [example of the Prophet]

Awza'i said: It is taken from every worshipper of idols or fire, and every denter or disbeliever.

Malik's view was similar: It is taken from every type of polytheist or denier, Arab or not, "Taghlib" or "Quraysh", whoever they are, with the exception of the apostate.

Ibn al-Qasim, Ashhab and Suhnun said: It is taken from Arab Magians and all other nations. But Arab idolaters do not pay jizya: they should not remain on the earth at all. Their only options are Islam or the sword.

Another view of Ibn al-Qasim was that jizya may be taken from them, as Malik said. This is found in Al-Tafri' by Ibn al-Jallab: a possible derivation, not an unequivocal text.

Ibn Wahb said: It is not taken from Arab Magians, but from non-Arab ones. This is because every Arab Magian converted to Islam, so any non-Muslim amongst them is an apostate, who must be killed" if he does not submit (by way of Islam): jizya is not accepted from him.

Ibn al-Jahm said: Jizya is taken from every follower of a non-Islamic religion, except by consensus for the disbelievers of Quraysh. This is to honour them above humiliation and belittlement, because they are the tribe of the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace. Others said: It is because they all submitted (in Islam) on the day of the Conquest of Mecca.

[Ali Imran]

Let's not veer away from the point..And yes, your prophet did force faith upon people. I'm sure you know it as well...I can give you more findings on the jizya which is non imposed on the people. There are mixed answers.


From whom is jizya to be taken?]

Al-Qurtubi:

The people of knowledge have disagreed about this. Abu Hanifa and his companions, Thawri, Shafi'i, Ahmad, and Abu Thawr said: It is only taken from People of Scripture, Arab or non-Arab. As for polytheists, the verse (Qur'an 9:5) obliges their killing with no option of jizya, unlike People of Scripture. It is taken from Magians also by the Sunna [example of the Prophet]

Awza'i said: It is taken from every worshipper of idols or fire, and every denter or disbeliever.

Malik's view was similar: It is taken from every type of polytheist or denier, Arab or not, "Taghlib" or "Quraysh", whoever they are, with the exception of the apostate.

Ibn al-Qasim, Ashhab and Suhnun said: It is taken from Arab Magians and all other nations. But Arab idolaters do not pay jizya: they should not remain on the earth at all. Their only options are Islam or the sword.

Another view of Ibn al-Qasim was that jizya may be taken from them, as Malik said. This is found in Al-Tafri' by Ibn al-Jallab: a possible derivation, not an unequivocal text.

Ibn Wahb said: It is not taken from Arab Magians, but from non-Arab ones. This is because every Arab Magian converted to Islam, so any non-Muslim amongst them is an apostate, who must be killed" if he does not submit (by way of Islam): jizya is not accepted from him.

Ibn al-Jahm said: Jizya is taken from every follower of a non-Islamic religion, except by consensus for the disbelievers of Quraysh. This is to honour them above humiliation and belittlement, because they are the tribe of the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace. Others said: It is because they all submitted (in Islam) on the day of the Conquest of Mecca.

The Quran made it clear in verse 2:256 that there must be no compulsion in faith. End of story. Your attempt to pin that on our prophet is futile when the Quran has a clear and unambiguous verse that we cannot force people to accept Islam.

So, can we say you're mistaken when you said our esteemed Imams taught us to kill non-believers everywhere?

[pinkpanther]

Those rapists will be prosecuted and dealt with by law lah!  They still have eternal life in heaven lah! If they confess their sins God will still forgive them lah!

yes..if they stop raping, repent and ask for forgiveness ..Jesus forgives the repentant thief and promises him a place in Paradise.

[pinkpanther]

The Quran made it clear in verse 2:256 that there must be no compulsion in faith. End of story. Your attempt to pin that on our prophet is futile when the Quran has a clear and unambiguous verse that we cannot force people to accept Islam.

So, can we say you're mistaken when you said our esteemed Imams taught us to kill non-believers everywhere?

Saying one thing and doing another is a different thing...what is the penalty for not embracing islam for the people of the books? Pay the jizya or face death...That is compulsion of faith.

No compulsion of faith is when you take nothing not even their lives when they refuse to accept Islam..

Whether the 4 Imams are told to kill non believers..you have to go find out and read..I can only lead you thus far

[Lukongsimi]

“Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭ESV

[Ali Imran]

Saying one thing and doing another is a different thing...what is the penalty for not embracing islam for the people of the books? Pay the jizya or face death...That is compulsion of faith.

No compulsion of faith is when you take nothing not even their lives when they refuse to accept Islam..

Whether the 4 Imams are told to kill non believers..you have to go find out and read..I can only lead you thus far

When the Muslims led by the Prophet صلي الله عليه وسلم were at war, the end game was their surrender (jizya) or fight till the enemies were killed. No forcing them to convert is included.

[Ali Imran]

Whether the 4 Imams are told to kill non believers..you have to go find out and read..I can only lead you thus far

You said our 4 Imams taught us to kill non-believers everywhere. Please provide proof of your claim. If you don't, I can say you're lying.

[Lukongsimi]

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. Jesus said this in John 14:6-9: I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father [God] except through me

[pinkpanther]

You said our 4 Imams taught us to kill non-believers everywhere. Please provide proof of your claim. If you don't, I can say you're lying.

 just because you can't find, that does not mean that I'm lying...Islam makes a claim about the Injil but we don have it or rather we can't find it...does that mean that Islam is lying?