[Ali Imran]

Don be so work up
Let's be polite and courteous in our discussion...

This is what the AI says in short..polytheism to them is a grave sin so there is nothing wrong to implement the
death sentence

Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, both prominent figures in Sunni Islamic jurisprudence, firmly rejected polytheism. Their teachings emphasized the absolute oneness of God (tawhid) and condemned any practices that would associate partners with Allah.

In essence:
Both Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal held the same conviction: polytheism is a grave sin and a rejection of the fundamental tenets of Islam. Their teachings and writings serve as a strong foundation for understanding the importance of tawhid in Islamic faith.

Lukongsimi, please take note. Your friend is telling us that Muslims worship only 1 God.

[Ali Imran]

Don be so work up
Let's be polite and courteous in our discussion...

This is what the AI says in short..polytheism to the 2 mentioned imans is a grave sin so there is nothing wrong to implement the
death sentence

Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, both prominent figures in Sunni Islamic jurisprudence, firmly rejected polytheism. Their teachings emphasized the absolute oneness of God (tawhid) and condemned any practices that would associate partners with Allah.

In essence:
Both Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal held the same conviction: polytheism is a grave sin and a rejection of the fundamental tenets of Islam. Their teachings and writings serve as a strong foundation for understanding the importance of tawhid in Islamic faith.

Good morning Christian. My name is Zed. A lot of my friends call me that. Yes, it's really my name. What is yours?

[pinkpanther]

The disagreement was about who should be levied the jizya. 

You said 2 of our Imams taught Muslims that we can kill non-Muslims everywhere. That is an outright lie.

Prove to me what they say about polytheism...đefen your case with evidences to prove mẹ wrong

[Ali Imran]

Prove to me what they say about polytheism...đefen your case with evidences to prove mẹ wrong

You said 2 of our esteemed Imams taught us that we should kill non-Muslims everywhere.

First, admit that you're mistaken. There is no such teaching by any of our 4 esteemed Imams.

[Ali Imran]

Food for thought: Is it reasonable to believe that a pious, moral Muslim who sincerely worships the god he calls Allah will be sent to hell, while a serial rapist or killer who professes faith in Christ just before his execution will spend eternity in heaven? How could a God of justice ever do such a thing?

You believe God is just but you also believe God made an innocent man pay the ultimate price for the wrongdoings of evil people because God so loved them.

That is a contradiction in your theology. How come you cannot see that?

[pinkpanther]

Lukongsimi, please take note. Your friend is telling us that Muslims worship only 1 God.

Yesterday you said there is no compulsion on faith and now these 2 Imams cannot tolerate polytheists...what says you?

[Ali Imran]

Yesterday you said there is no compulsion on faith and now these 2 Imams cannot tolerate polytheists...what says you?

All 4 Imams, not just 2, agreed about shirik, that it is the greatest sin. The Bible also agrees.

[pinkpanther]

All 4 Imams, not just 2, agreed about shirik, that it is the greatest sin. The Bible also agrees.

Can paying a jizya remove the greatest sin?

[pinkpanther]

All 4 Imams, not just 2, agreed about shirik, that it is the greatest sin. The Bible also agrees.

Look, 1 of the 4 Imams Shafi'i Madhab even permits killing all non Muslim adult males during Jihad..

https://islam.stackexchange.com/question...during-jih

[Ali Imran]

Look, 1 of the 4 Imams Shafi'i Madhab even permits killing all non Muslim adult males during Jihad..

https://islam.stackexchange.com/question...during-jih

In a war, there will be killing.

[pinkpanther]

In a war, there will be killing.

I have posted this yesterday...why did you ignore the views of Imam Wahidi? Just because he is not a prominent figure?

Imam Wahidi recorded under the Tafsir of verse 5:105:

Ibn 'Abbas said: “The Messenger of Allah sent a letter to the people of Hajar, whose chief was Mundhir ibn Sawa, inviting them to Islam, or to pay the Jizyah if they chose not to embrace Islam. When Mundhir ibn Sawa received the letter, he showed it to the Arabs, Jews, Christians, Sabeans and Magians who were around him.

 They all agreed to pay the Jizyah and disliked embracing Islam. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, wrote back to him, saying: 'As for the Arabs, do not accept from them except Islam otherwise they will have nothing but the sword. As for the people of the Book and the Magians, accept the Jizyah from them. When this letter was read to them, the Arabs embraced Islam while the people of the Book and the Magians agreed to pay the Jizyah.

[Ali Imran]

I have posted this yesterday...why did you ignore the views of Imam Wahidi? Just because he is not a prominent figure?

Imam Wahidi recorded under the Tafsir of verse 5:105:

Ibn 'Abbas said: “The Messenger of Allah sent a letter to the people of Hajar, whose chief was Mundhir ibn Sawa, inviting them to Islam, or to pay the Jizyah if they chose not to embrace Islam. When Mundhir ibn Sawa received the letter, he showed it to the Arabs, Jews, Christians, Sabeans and Magians who were around him.

 They all agreed to pay the Jizyah and disliked embracing Islam. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, wrote back to him, saying: 'As for the Arabs, do not accept from them except Islam otherwise they will have nothing but the sword. As for the people of the Book and the Magians, accept the Jizyah from them. When this letter was read to them, the Arabs embraced Islam while the people of the Book and the Magians agreed to pay the Jizyah.

Do you know the context? I'm sure you don't. I also don't know. We need to refer to mainstream scholars and seek their explanation of any authentic sayings of the Prophet صلي الله عليه وسلم. 

There are extremists among the Muslims who will interpret some ambiguous sayings of our Prophet, usually to advance their cause. Look at ISIS, for example. 

Anyhow, none of our 4 esteemed Imams says we should kill non-Muslims all over the world.

[pinkpanther]

Do you know the context? I'm sure you don't. I also don't know. We need to refer to mainstream scholars and seek their explanation of any authentic sayings of the Prophet صلي الله عليه وسلم. 

There are extremists among the Muslims who will interpret some ambiguous sayings of our Prophet, usually to advance their cause. Look at ISIS, for example. 

Anyhow, none of our 4 esteemed Imams says we should kill non-Muslims all over the world.

The context is in relation with tafsir verse 5:105

[pinkpanther]

 

Anyhow, none of our 4 esteemed Imams says we should kill non-Muslims all over the world.

Do you remember that ISIS took Jizya from Christians in Iraq and let them live, but ISIS didn't take Jizya from Yazidis and killed their men and enslaved their women?

Here is the reason:

According to Salafi Islam (and also according to Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal), Jizya is allowed only for Christians/Jews/Zoroastrians (who are known as the "people of the Book أهل الكتاب" in Islam).
But as far as other non-Muslims (like Atheists, Deists, Hindus, Buddhists etc.) are concerned, then they cannot live even by paying Jizya. They either have to accept Islam, or they should be slaughtered.
Muhammad himself didn't accept Jizya from the polytheists of Arabia but after the revelation of the verse of the sword (i.e. killing all polytheists after 4 months), he forced all of them to accept Islam.
Later, some Muslim jurists like Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik said that it was limited only to the polytheists of Arabia, but as far as the polytheists of the non-Arab world are concerned, they could live by paying Jizya.

But other Muslim jurists like Imam Shafii and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (and modern-day Salafists) disagree. According to them, non-Arab non-Muslims also don't have any right to live even through paying Jizya. They either have to accept Islam or they should be slaughtered.

This means that if Salafists form an Islamic State today, then they will kill all non-Muslims like Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. (accept for Jews/Christians/Magians who can stay alive by paying Jizya).

[Ali Imran]

Do you remember that ISIS took Jizya from Christians in Iraq and let them live, but ISIS didn't take Jizya from Yazidis and killed their men and enslaved their women?

Here is the reason:

According to Salafi Islam (and also according to Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal), Jizya is allowed only for Christians/Jews/Zoroastrians (who are known as the "people of the Book أهل الكتاب" in Islam).
But as far as other non-Muslims (like Atheists, Deists, Hindus, Buddhists etc.) are concerned, then they cannot live even by paying Jizya. They either have to accept Islam, or they should be slaughtered.
Muhammad himself didn't accept Jizya from the polytheists of Arabia but after the revelation of the verse of the sword (i.e. killing all polytheists after 4 months), he forced all of them to accept Islam.
Later, some Muslim jurists like Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik said that it was limited only to the polytheists of Arabia, but as far as the polytheists of the non-Arab world are concerned, they could live by paying Jizya.

But other Muslim jurists like Imam Shafii and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (and modern-day Salafists) disagree. According to them, non-Arab non-Muslims also don't have any right to live even through paying Jizya. They either have to accept Islam or they should be slaughtered.

This means that if Salafists form an Islamic State today, then they will kill all non-Muslims like Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. (accept for Jews/Christians/Magians who can stay alive by paying Jizya).

So you want to advance ISIS here while most Muslims reject them as extremists?

[pinkpanther]

So you want to advance ISIS here while most Muslims reject them as extremists?

How can you ignore your esteemed Imams ? Reading at long length seems like a bother to you?

[Ali Imran]

How can you ignore your esteemed Imams ? Reading at long length seems like a bother to you?

Why are you interested about rulings in times of war? That is way about your pay-grade, and mine too. That's for the learned jurists to discuss. 

Just look at the current conflict in the Middle East. We have the followers of your Bible targeting women and children because your Bible allows it. By comparison, we have authentic sayings of the Prophet forbidding us from doing the same.

[pinkpanther]

Why are you interested about rulings in times of war? That is way about your pay-grade, and mine too. That's for the learned jurists to discuss. 

Just look at the current conflict in the Middle East. We have the followers of your Bible targeting women and children because your Bible allows it. By comparison, we have authentic sayings of the Prophet forbidding us from doing the same.

You called mẹ a liar ..when I showed you the disagreements between the 4 Imams...you say it is way above my pay grade  should we be discussing bebek and pek pek instead...

Let's stick to the Quran and Hadiths then...this will he easier for you..

[Ali Imran]

You called mẹ a liar ..when I showed you the disagreements between the 4 Imams...you say it is way above my pay grade  should we be discussing bebek and pek pek instead...

Let's stick to the Quran and Hadiths then...this will he easier for you..

You said 2 of our Imams said Muslims should kill non-Muslims all over the world. That is a lie. Period.

I knew you could not remain civil in the discussion. You want to be vulgar instead. I'm a modest person and I cringe on vulgarity.

[pinkpanther]

Well, we know Moses performed great miracles of the same kind that Jesus performed, but Christ's miracles were greater in degree. While Moses lifted the bronze serpent to give healing to those who would look at it, he never made the blind to see, the deaf to hear, or the lame to walk, in the way Jesus did. He also never raised anyone from the dead, as Jesus did (John 11). Whereas Moses died and remains dead, Jesus predicted His own death and resurrection (John 2:19-22; Matt 12:40).

Moses never claimed to be God, but Jesus did (John 8:58; 10:30). Moses gave the law of God (John 1:17) while Jesus was the only One who ever fulfilled the law (Rom 8:2-4). This is what Jesus taught about the Old Testament: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished" (Matt 5:17-18). He added, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled (Luke 24:44; Matt 5:17-18; John 5:39; Heb 10:7). Simply put, Moses gave the law that condemns us (Rom 8:3), but Jesus provided the grace that redeems us (Gal 3:13; John 1:17).

Welcome back, bro. A strong defense and well-crafted write-up that leaves no room for the Moslem to nitpick or exploit verses.

[Ali Imran]

Welcome back, bro. A strong defense and well-crafted write-up that leaves no room for the Moslem to nitpick or exploit verses.

I've grown tired of showing SimTan the ambiguity of the verses he cherry-picked to prove Jesus is God.

Now, let me ask you. If Jesus is God, why would he obscure that info and then throw people in hell for not believing he is God?

[pinkpanther]

You said 2 of our Imams said Muslims should kill non-Muslims all over the world. That is a lie. Period.

I knew you could not remain civil in the discussion. You want to be vulgar instead. I'm a modest person and I cringe on vulgarity.

I haven't insulted or used vulgar language toward you. I'm simply sharing a parable...please stay calm.

[Ali Imran]

I haven't insulted or used vulgar language toward you. I'm simply sharing a parable...please stay calm.

Let me show you something. All the verses of the Gospels that SimTan will use to prove Jesus is God can only be found in John. How come the earlier-written Gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke didn't report those critical statements of Jesus hinting he is God?

The answer can be understood in 2 words: gradual elevation. Yes, the status of Jesus was gradually elevated.

[pinkpanther]

I've grown tired of showing SimTan the ambiguity of the verses he cherry-picked to prove Jesus is God.

Now, let me ask you. If Jesus is God, why would he obscure that info and then throw people in hell for not believing he is God?

How can you grow tired of SimTan when he was away for 2 weeks

Don worry, from now onwards, every morning when you read his post....2 panadols will do the trick for you 

[pinkpanther]

Let me show you something. All the verses of the Gospels that SimTan will use to prove Jesus is God can only be found in John. How come the earlier-written Gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke didn't report those critical statements of Jesus hinting he is God?

The answer can be understood in 2 words: gradual elevation. Yes, the status of Jesus was gradually elevated.

I agree partially..

[Ali Imran]

How can you grow tired of SimTan when he was away for 2 weeks

Don worry, from now onwards, every morning when you read his post....2 panadols will do the trick for you 

The most powerful argument, and the easiest to deliver, to reject the notion of Jesus being God is: Jesus never once said he is God.

[Ali Imran]

I agree partially..

SimTan and I have never argued about the Father being God. Why? Because there are clear and unambiguous statements of the Father saying He is God. But we argue non-stop about Jesus being God because Jesus never once uttered the words "I am God".

How come none of the disciples preached to the people that Jesus is God? Even Paul didn't do that.

[Ali Imran]

Even Batman made it clear, "I am Batman".

[pinkpanther]

The most powerful argument, and the easiest to deliver, to reject the notion of Jesus being God is: Jesus never once said he is God.

But Jesus also never say that He is the messiah or the kalimathu in the Quran...why did the Quran give Him these titles if He never claim to say it?

[pinkpanther]

Even Batman made it clear, "I am Batman".

Even Gabriel made it clear, " do not be afraid, I'm angel Gabriel"