(25-05-2025, 09:04 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Begotten is the past participle of beget 
It can be used like what you said " generate" in human terms.. but it is used differently in relation to Jesus and the Father
Words carry meanings. If the author of John wrote that Jesus was begotten from the Father, that means something. Logically, it means Jesus came after the Father, isn't it?
(25-05-2025, 08:57 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Allah says the Quran will not change and we hold that in faith.
On judgement day, we will not be asked if we have the correct belief about the Quran being created or uncreated. Instead, we will be asked about what we did in this world.
Ok..so is the speech of Allah created or uncreated
If it is highly debated....then it will create doubts..
Will you be questioned about your actions in your previous life? I understand that fasting will serve as an intercessor for you....the Quran will be present, as well as Prophet Muhammad, the Black stone too ..Additionally, those who memorize and recite the entire Quran can also intercede on your behalf...it is going to be one busy day
(25-05-2025, 09:07 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Words carry meanings. If the author of John wrote that Jesus was begotten from the Father, that means something. Logically, it means Jesus came after the Father, isn't it?
Came after doesn't mean that the Father generated Him ...do you agree?
(25-05-2025, 09:19 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Ok..so is the speech of Allah created or uncreated
If it is highly debated....then it will create doubts..
It is now highly debated because Christians like you is trying to turn the table on us. When Muslims question Christians about the logical problem of the Trinity, they have no answer. So, in turning the tables, they question us on the Quran, whether it's created or not, a topic that has no bearing on our salvation.
The point to note here is, Muslims don't have any problem like the Christians have regarding the Trinity or other core doctrines. Why we don't have that problem?
(25-05-2025, 09:20 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Came after doesn't mean that the Father generated Him ...do you agree?
Agree.
But come after means, Jesus cannot exist without the Father. Agree?
(25-05-2025, 09:19 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Will you be questioned about your actions in your previous life? I understand that fasting will serve as an intercessor for you....the Quran will be present, as well as Prophet Muhammad, the Black stone too ..Additionally, those who memorize and recite the entire Quran can also intercede on your behalf...it is going to be one busy day
Yes, we will be questioned about our actions in this life.
(25-05-2025, 09:25 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]It is now highly debated because Christians like you is trying to turn the table on us. When Muslims question Christians about the logical problem of the Trinity, they have no answer. So, in turning the tables, they question us on the Quran, whether it's created or not, a topic that has no bearing on our salvation.
The point to note here is, Muslims don't have any problem like the Christians have regarding the Trinity or other core doctrines. Why we don't have that problem?
I know your salvation is base on your faith and deeds
but if Allah's speech is considered created, it might influence certain theological concepts, including how divine revelation is perceived and its role in guiding believers toward salvation....
Within this perspective, the created nature of Allah's speech could imply that the Quran, while being the speech of Allah, is a created entity that serves as a means for humans to attain guidance and salvation.
This view can affect how divine authority is understood and how divine communication interacts with human salvation.
(25-05-2025, 09:27 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, we will be questioned about our actions in this life.
Any chance for forgetfulness to kick in?
(25-05-2025, 09:40 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Yes.. agree
That means Jesus is contingent, and God, by definition, is not contingent.
(25-05-2025, 09:39 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Any chance for forgetfulness to kick in?
Do you believe God can forget?
(25-05-2025, 09:38 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]I know your salvation is base on your faith and deeds
but if Allah's speech is considered created, it might influence certain theological concepts, including how divine revelation is perceived and its role in guiding believers toward salvation....
Within this perspective, the created nature of Allah's speech could imply that the Quran, while being the speech of Allah, is a created entity that serves as a means for humans to attain guidance and salvation.
This view can affect how divine authority is understood and how divine communication interacts with human salvation.
We are told about what we will be questioned on judgement day, and it is not about that esoteric topic you want to discuss.
We will be asked, for example, who our Lord is while in this world. Is it our desires? Is it our boss at work? Is it a man? Or is it our Creator?
And yes, some people take their desires as their lord.
(25-05-2025, 09:43 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]That means Jesus is contingent, and God, by definition, is not contingent.
Jesus is not subjective ..The Son is eternally begotten by the Father, meaning the Son's existence and divine nature are
inseparable from the Father...
(25-05-2025, 09:49 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]The Son is eternally begotten by the Father,
Jesus cannot exist without the Father, you already agreed on that.
That means the existence of Jesus is contingent on the Father.
(25-05-2025, 09:43 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Do you believe God can forget?
What I mean is, when God asks about your life and what you've done, can you still recall if you have bad memory?
If God already knows what you've done, then why does He ask?
(25-05-2025, 09:52 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Jesus cannot exist without the Father, you already agreed on that.
That means the existence of Jesus is contingent on the Father.
Don play semantics ..the Father cannot exist without the Son as well..They are one God, eternally united, and inseparable...
(25-05-2025, 09:53 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]What I mean is, when God asks about your life and what you've done, can you still recall if you have bad memory?
If God already knows what you've done, then why does He ask?
We will be judged for the wrongs we have done in this world. Our records will be shown to us on that day. You don't need memory.
The questioning is rhetorical. Even Jesus will be asked if he did tell people to worship him. And his answer, we are told, will be
" Glory be to You! How could I ever say what I had no right to say? If I had said such a thing, you would have certainly known it. You know what is ˹hidden˺ within me, but I do not know what is within You. Indeed, You ˹alone˺ are the Knower of all unseen. ".
(25-05-2025, 09:57 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Don play semantics ..the Father cannot exist without the Son as well..They are one God, eternally united, and inseparable...
Did the Son beget the Father? No. Only the Father begets the Son.
So one must be there first before the other. That is the only logical conclusion based on your explanation.
(25-05-2025, 09:25 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]It is now highly debated because Christians like you is trying to turn the table on us. When Muslims question Christians about the logical problem of the Trinity, they have no answer. So, in turning the tables, they question us on the Quran, whether it's created or not, a topic that has no bearing on our salvation.
The point to note here is, Muslims don't have any problem like the Christians have regarding the Trinity or other core doctrines. Why we don't have that problem?
Your don’t have the problem ?why keep attacking our Bible ?
Without the Bible there’s no copied Koran
Koran came from the Bible
Koran came from the Bible it’s true
(25-05-2025, 10:17 AM)Lukongsimi Wrote: [ -> ]Koran came from the Bible it’s true
That is false.
You can only make that assertion but you cannot substantiate it.
(25-05-2025, 10:07 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Did the Son beget the Father? No. Only the Father begets the Son.
So one must be there first before the other. That is the only logical conclusion based on your explanation.
I can play along. .so what is the point?
(25-05-2025, 10:24 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]I can play along. .so what is the point?
Jesus's existence is contingent on the Father.
Koran came 600 years later
Why Moslem need Isaiah 42 to prove your muh was the chosen servant for kedar?
So still need the Bible for support
Without the Bible there will be no Koran
(25-05-2025, 10:30 AM)Lukongsimi Wrote: [ -> ]Koran came 600 years later
Why Moslem need Isaiah 42 to prove your muh was the chosen servant for kedar?
So still need the Bible for support
Without the Bible there will be no Koran
Most Muslims, and I really mean most, don't read the Bible and never read the Bible. We don't need to read the Bible.
I brought up Isaiah 42 in my discussion with Christians, like how I brought up Mark, Matthew, Luke, or any books of the NT, for my arguments.
(25-05-2025, 10:38 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Most Muslims, and I really mean most, don't read the Bible and never read the Bible. We don't need to read the Bible.
I brought up Isaiah 42 in my discussion with Christians, like how I brought up Mark, Matthew, Luke, or any books of the NT, for my arguments.
You claim you knows better and now u claim u don’t read Bible ?How to know the whole truth if only cherry picks ?