(26-05-2025, 07:34 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]the OT only lays the groundwork for understanding God's nature and the Trinity doctrine emerged later in the NT
How come I cannot find a single verse in the NT that explicitly teaches the Trinity doctrine?
(26-05-2025, 07:34 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Where in the OT can I find that they believe that the Christians are polytheists?
For that, you will have to go to the teachings of the rabbis.
Here is an article from Torah.org where a question was put forth to the rabbis about entering a church or a mosque.
https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5772-bo/
(26-05-2025, 07:34 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Early jews in the early centuries believe in 2 persons being God..
Early Israelites were worshipping a golden calf but they were corrected from their erring ways.
And yes, the word "god" is loosely used in the Jewish bible. Judges are called gods, for example.
(26-05-2025, 07:50 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]How come I cannot find a single verse in the NT that explicitly teaches the Trinity doctrine?
The NT did not explicitly teaches The Trinity
There are plenty verses that support the Trinity
Islam teaches tolerance and peace but that's not in the Quran
(26-05-2025, 08:33 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]The NT did not explicitly teaches The Trinity
There are plenty verses that support the Trinity
Islam teaches tolerance and peace but that's not in the Quran
The Bible teaches that only 1 person is God and we can see explicit verses like that one I just showed you
That, according to Jesus in the NT, is the foremost of all commandments
Then you broke that command by adding 2 more persons
(26-05-2025, 07:54 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]For that, you will have to go to the teachings of the rabbis.
Here is an article from Torah.org where a question was put forth to the rabbis about entering a church or a mosque.
https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5772-bo/
Very clearly Christianity is monotheism..the whole world knows .. even Ai will tell you we are not polytheists...we can't stop them from thinking that we are idols worshippers just like how we think you are worshipping your black stone
(26-05-2025, 08:33 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]The NT did not explicitly teaches The Trinity
There are plenty verses that support the Trinity
Islam teaches tolerance and peace but that's not in the Quran
So how come the very most important doctrine in Christianity isn't clearly taught in the NT?
How come it started with 2 persons and then 3 persons?
How come it took about 3 hundred years and many ecumenical councils for the Trinity to finally be formulated?
(26-05-2025, 08:37 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]The Bible teaches that only 1 person is God and we can see explicit verses like that one I just showed you
That, according to Jesus in the NT, is the foremost of all commandments
Then you broke that command by adding 2 more persons
What you have shown mẹ is from the OT.. even some verses are interpreted as supporting the doctrine of the Trinity....
(26-05-2025, 08:39 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Very clearly Christianity is monotheism..the whole world knows .. even Ai will tell you we are not polytheists...we can't stop them from thinking that we are idols worshippers just like how we think you are worshipping your black stone
There are 3 of us belonging to the Abrahamic faith. Two of us are saying you are a polytheist.
As you already know, two of us are monotheists. If you go to our house of worship, the synagogue and the mosque, you cannot see the object of worship. But if you go to a church, you can see the object of worship, a man.
(26-05-2025, 08:42 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]So how come the very most important doctrine in Christianity isn't clearly taught in the NT?
How come it started with 2 persons and then 3 persons?
How come it took about 3 hundred years and many ecumenical councils for the Trinity to finally be formulated?
Tawhid was also formulated after the death of Muhammad...why?
(26-05-2025, 08:46 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Tawhid was also formulated after the death of Muhammad...why?
LOL
If you don't know, please ask.
The war cry of the Muslims against the pagans was "ahad al ahad", meaning one is one.
(26-05-2025, 08:46 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Tawhid was also formulated after the death of Muhammad...why?
Tauhid is explicitly taught in the Quran.
(26-05-2025, 08:45 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]There are 3 of us belonging to the Abrahamic faith. Two of us are saying you are a polytheist.
As you already know, two of us are monotheists. If you go to our house of worship, the synagogue and the mosque, you cannot see the object of worship. But if you go to a church, you can see the object of worship, a man.
Now you are taking sides with the jews...I can also find some common grounds with the jews and argue against Islam
(26-05-2025, 08:50 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Tauhid is explicitly taught in the Quran.
Show me in the Quran that says that Muhammad is teaching Tawhid
(26-05-2025, 08:49 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]LOL
If you don't know, please ask.
The war cry of the Muslims against the pagans was "ahad al ahad", meaning one is one.
One is one is a war cry that supports the doctrine of Tawhid .. This exact word Tawhid was only formalise after the death of Muhammad
(26-05-2025, 08:51 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Now you are taking sides with the jews...I can also find some common grounds with the jews and argue against Islam
The topic is monotheism. We are discussing the most important commandment.
(26-05-2025, 08:45 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]There are 3 of us belonging to the Abrahamic faith. Two of us are saying you are a polytheist.
As you already know, two of us are monotheists. If you go to our house of worship, the synagogue and the mosque, you cannot see the object of worship. But if you go to a church, you can see the object of worship, a man.
You don represent the Jews and you don represent the moslems...Judaism and Islam do not support your idea of calling us polytheists... let's be clear on that....
I don know where you get your bias from
(26-05-2025, 08:58 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]The topic is monotheism. We are discussing the most important commandment.
. Remember the jews are your foes
Let's us go to AI for some clarity
Jews and Muslims generally do not regard Christians as polytheists. Instead, they recognize Christianity as a monotheistic religion, although they may have theological differences with Christian doctrines.
**Jewish Perspective:**
Judaism strictly emphasizes the oneness of God (monotheism). While Judaism does not accept the Christian concept of the Trinity as compatible with strict monotheism, Jews traditionally do not view Christians as polytheists. Instead, they see Christianity as a monotheistic faith that has developed its own doctrines, which may differ from Jewish beliefs.
**Muslim Perspective:**
Islam also emphasizes strict monotheism (tawhid). Muslims regard Jesus (Isa) as a prophet and not divine, and they believe that Christianity, in its doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, deviates from pure monotheism. However, Muslims do not classify Christians as polytheists outright. Instead, they often describe Christian beliefs as a form of "associating partners with God" (shirk), which is considered a grave theological error, but not the same as polytheism. Islam generally considers Christians as "People of the Book" (Ahl al-Kitab), acknowledging their monotheistic roots, despite doctrinal differences.
**Summary:**
- Neither Jews nor Muslims typically regard Christians as polytheists.
- They see Christianity as a monotheistic faith with theological differences, especially regarding the nature of God and Jesus.
- The primary concern is theological divergence rather than categorizing Christians as polytheists.
If you're interested in more detailed theological perspectives or specific doctrinal discussions, feel free to ask!
(26-05-2025, 08:56 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Quran 112:1
This verse supports the doctrine of tawhid. My bad...please provide me with the exact word for "tawhid" in the Quran.
The word is only formulated after Muhammad's death
(26-05-2025, 09:12 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]This verse supports the doctrine of tawhid. My bad...please provide me with the exact word for "tawhid" in the Quran.
The word is only formulated after Muhammad's death
If you don't know, please ask
Tauhid means to do or say ahad, just like takbir is to do or say akbar. "Start your prayer with takbir" therefore we say "Allahu akbar" when we start our prayer.
I can give you some lessons on arabic grammar if you like.
(26-05-2025, 09:08 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Let's us go to AI for some clarity
Jews and Muslims generally do not regard Christians as polytheists. Instead, they recognize Christianity as a monotheistic religion, although they may have theological differences with Christian doctrines.
**Jewish Perspective:**
Judaism strictly emphasizes the oneness of God (monotheism). While Judaism does not accept the Christian concept of the Trinity as compatible with strict monotheism, Jews traditionally do not view Christians as polytheists. Instead, they see Christianity as a monotheistic faith that has developed its own doctrines, which may differ from Jewish beliefs.
**Muslim Perspective:**
Islam also emphasizes strict monotheism (tawhid). Muslims regard Jesus (Isa) as a prophet and not divine, and they believe that Christianity, in its doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, deviates from pure monotheism. However, Muslims do not classify Christians as polytheists outright. Instead, they often describe Christian beliefs as a form of "associating partners with God" (shirk), which is considered a grave theological error, but not the same as polytheism. Islam generally considers Christians as "People of the Book" (Ahl al-Kitab), acknowledging their monotheistic roots, despite doctrinal differences.
**Summary:**
- Neither Jews nor Muslims typically regard Christians as polytheists.
- They see Christianity as a monotheistic faith with theological differences, especially regarding the nature of God and Jesus.
- The primary concern is theological divergence rather than categorizing Christians as polytheists.
If you're interested in more detailed theological perspectives or specific doctrinal discussions, feel free to ask!
Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic but you associate partners to the one true God. So, while you say God is one but in practice, you associate partners with God when you take a man as God.
(26-05-2025, 09:01 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]. Remember the jews are your foes
No, they are not. If they are foes, the Muslims would not protect them in Spain.
The Caliph Umar, when the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, was shocked to find that there were no Jews there. That's because the Christians persecuted and massacred them. He then gave instructions to his men to start inviting the Jews back to the holy land.
(26-05-2025, 09:26 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic but you associate partners to the one true God. So, while you say God is one but in practice, you associate partners with God when you take a man as God.
Declaration of Faith... a declaration that is meant to free you from all Shirk (polytheism). The purpose of the Shahada is to affirm the Oneness of God and to declare that He has no partners or associates.
By adding another name, you are, in effect, contradicting the very statement you just made by associating another entity with God.
(26-05-2025, 09:28 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]No, they are not. If they are foes, the Muslims would not protect them in Spain.
The Caliph Umar, when the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, was shocked to find that there were no Jews there. That's because the Christians persecuted and massacred them. He then gave instructions to his men to start inviting the Jews back to the holy land.
Pay the Jizya, and you will receive protection. If you cannot pay, death may be the consequence. Therefore, do not portray Muslims as solely righteous protectors.
A partner to God can be anything, no matter how insignificant it may seem, and it still constitutes associating partners with God. Consider an infant as an example. We all know that infants are completely harmless and unable even to help themselves, let alone others. If you were to say:
"There is no God except God, and this infant is His harmless little creation,"
and declare it as part of your testimony (Shahadah), you would indeed be committing Shirk because you are implying that this infant is somehow 'something' alongside God.
No one and nothing should be mentioned during a testimony about the Oneness of God, about His having no partners in any way. This is why they removed "Wahdahu la sharika lahu" and added the mention of the Prophet Muhammad. It is undeniably clear that this alteration has been made, without question. So why would anyone remove such a vital part of the Shahadah? Think about that for a minute.
(26-05-2025, 09:38 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Pay the Jizya, and you will receive protection. If you cannot pay, death may be the consequence. Therefore, do not portray Muslims as solely righteous protectors.
Whatever.
If the Jews attack us, they are foes. If they don't, they are not foes. It's as simple as that.
(26-05-2025, 09:33 AM)pinkpanther Wrote: [ -> ]Declaration of Faith... a declaration that is meant to free you from all Shirk (polytheism). The purpose of the Shahada is to affirm the Oneness of God and to declare that He has no partners or associates.
By adding another name, you are, in effect, contradicting the very statement you just made by associating another entity with God.
Our Shahadah is known as Shahadatain, meaning two Shahadah. One is to testify tauhid and the other is to testify that Muhammad صلي الله عليه وسلم is God's messenger.
Is that clearer for you now?
(26-05-2025, 09:42 AM)Ali Imran Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever.
If the Jews attack us, they are foes. If they don't, they are not foes. It's as simple as that.
Whatever.
If the Jews attack us, they are foes. If they don't, they are not foes
if Jizya is collected. It's as simple as that.